June 28, 2025

447: What Your $300K Racket Budget Really Gets You w/ Ed Shanaphy

Ever wondered why your club's racket department seems financially constrained? In this eye-opening episode, consultant and racket management expert Ed Shanaphy lifts the curtain on the numbers rarely discussed in polite club company. The financial anatomy of a racket department is more complex than most realize. Shanaphy reveals that nationally, racket departments typically receive just 3% of a club's overall revenue – translating to about $300,000 for a club generating $10 million. More cri...

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Ever wondered why your club's racket department seems financially constrained? In this eye-opening episode, consultant and racket management expert Ed Shanaphy lifts the curtain on the numbers rarely discussed in polite club company.

The financial anatomy of a racket department is more complex than most realize. Shanaphy reveals that nationally, racket departments typically receive just 3% of a club's overall revenue – translating to about $300,000 for a club generating $10 million. More critically, payroll shouldn't exceed 55% of that figure, leaving just $165,000 to staff an entire department. These constraints explain why directors must be creative with limited resources.

Rather than defaulting to discounts, Shanaphy advocates strategic revenue growth through thoughtful promotions. "If you come to your ladies practice, 50% off Sophie Bella clothing," he suggests as an example that drives both participation and sales. This cross-selling approach delivers more value than random price cuts while building stronger member engagement.

The conversation explores compensation structures, housing considerations, and how top professionals approach the business side of racket sports. Shanifee draws important parallels to golf management, noting that understanding operations beyond teaching is crucial for long-term success. "I strung a lot of rackets at midnight so members had them at 6am the next day," he recalls, emphasizing how these experiences shape exceptional club professionals.

Looking toward 2025, Shanaphy identifies dynamic pricing as an emerging trend. Just as hotels and airlines adjust prices based on demand, forward-thinking clubs are considering charging premium rates during peak hours while offering discounts during traditionally slower periods. This approach maximizes both revenue and facility usage – though implementation requires sensitivity at member-owned clubs.

Whether you're managing rackets at a prestigious club or simply curious about the business behind the sport, this conversation provides invaluable insights into creating sustainable, profitable racket programs that enhance the overall club experience.

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00:00 - Welcome to the Private Club Radio Show

02:38 - Racket Department Budgeting and Revenue

08:11 - Payroll Percentages and Staffing Challenges

14:10 - Pricing, Promotions, and Growth Strategies

23:16 - Negotiating Packages and Compensation

34:59 - Dynamic Pricing and Industry Trends

41:41 - Club Investments and Future Outlook

WEBVTT

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Hey everybody, welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, where we give you the scoop on all things private golf and country clubs, from mastering leadership and management, food and beverage excellence, member engagement secrets, board governance and everything in between, all while keeping it fun and light.

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Whether you're a club veteran just getting your feet wet or somewhere in the middle, you are in the right place.

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I'm your host, denny Corby.

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Welcome to the show.

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What do payroll percentages, pickleball courts and windex have in common?

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Nah, it's not the start of another bad dad joke.

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It's another day in the mind of Ed Shanifee, and in this episode we sit down with one of the most honest, entertaining and wickedly smart minds in the business.

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He's from New England, so he had to say wickedly smart.

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Ed is a consultant, a coach, a club pro lifer and possibly the only guy who can make racket department budgeting actually fun to listen to.

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Ed's been in the trenches, from stringing rackets at midnight to negotiating club contracts, to moderating panels at national tennis conferences.

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He's the real deal and he's not afraid to say the quiet numbers out loud.

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He's been on the show before and we're excited to have him back.

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We get into why your racket department might be accidentally bleeding money, what a $3,000 racket budget really gets you.

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And, spoiler alert, it's not a Rolex, which is really unfortunate.

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We also go over what clubs are doing right and totally wrong when it comes to hiring and budgeting for your rackets.

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We talk about how to stretch your resources without snapping your strings.

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We go over dynamic pricing, club politics and really all of this is just how to turn a struggling rackets department around without slashing prices or tossing out discounts like it's candy, because that's just not fun and not profitable.

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And I am super stoked to dive into this episode with Ed because we just go over the real stuff.

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It's really good and I can't wait.

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Before we dive in, a quick thanks to some of our show partners.

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You hear about them in the ads Kenneth's member vetting, golf Life Navigators, members, first Club, capital Group, concert Golf Partners, as well as myself, the denny corby experience.

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There's excitement, there's mystery.

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Also there's magic, mind reading and comedy, a lot of laughs, gasps and holy craps.

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If you want to have one of the most fun member event nights for your club, head on over to dennycorbycom and then, really quick, I gotta tell you about something really special and that I'm very passionate about and super excited for it's something that I'm putting together on Monday, september 22nd.

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It's called Management in Motion and honestly, it's not your typical leadership event.

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It's happening at Monticello Motor Club and it's for private club professionals who want to learn, connect and maybe burn a little rubber along the way Think drag racing, high-speed runs, drifting, karting and, yeah, some killer leadership talks as well.

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This is the only leadership event where you learn high-octane lessons, then literally hit the gas.

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It's part leadership summit, part track day and 100% unforgettable, with education and real lessons from other club professionals, but not just that club professionals who also go on the track.

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So we're going to talk about how club leadership relates to what we're doing on the track.

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And the track day.

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It is going to be absolutely insane.

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All your food is included, I have a poker night, there's prizes, there's giveaways.

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This is literally unlike any other club management event retreat, whatever you want to call it.

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You've done.

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I'm super stoked.

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If you want to learn a little bit more, head on over to privateclubradiocom slash management in motion, or just privateclubradiocom slash MIM, m-i-m for management in Motion.

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There's a quick little video on there, two minutes.

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Check it out.

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It'll give you all the details.

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I promise this will be one of the most fun things you will do all year, guaranteed.

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And this event is exclusive and limited to only 50 people, so make sure you sign up.

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Enough about that, though.

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Well, I do want you to come, so don't forget it.

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Up enough about that though.

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Well, I do want you to come, so don't forget it.

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But enough about that.

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Let's get to the episode.

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Private club radio listeners.

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Let's welcome back to the show ed shanify.

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What was that panel on we?

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You know they asked us to like they asked us about patricio mistrano and myself were both leading directors.

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We were.

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Now we've both left direct, you know, left that and gone on to consulting.

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So they wanted to like talk about being a director.

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So we made it the challenge, the challenges facing a director in today's modern business world.

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We try to focus on business.

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You know those conferences really have a lot of uh seminars on how to, how to coach, what wording to use, how to you know new programming ideas and we tried to really focus on business.

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Like percentages of payroll right, like total gross revenues of a club versus your budget for racket's department.

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What should that be compared to your gross club revenue, food and beverage budget?

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Those kinds of things.

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The stuff that people want to know and should know, but no one talks about.

00:05:03.345 --> 00:05:07.302
Exactly, I mean, and I shared a couple of big numbers and people are like, whoa, that's a great number.

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Thanks, ed.

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What can you?

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Can you share the numbers?

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What are those numbers?

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My number is is in terms of payroll right.

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So anytime I look at my gross revenue for my, my department, payroll cannot be over 55%.

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And when I say payroll I also mean like total cost of employees.

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Like, for example, um, if you're going to include housing, if you have to house your employees, that's part of for me, that's part of payroll.

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Okay, so so can you, can you like break it down?

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Can you give like, let's just say it's a club doing 50 million or so, you know, or like, can you?

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Give like a fake scenario of like, of, like, the breakdown from like the large number down to like the rackets.

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And then what?

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What you're?

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talking about yeah, so so basically, if exactly right, so say you're at a, say your club's a million dollars, just to make it easy, right, million dollars.

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I was trying to sound bougie with 50, but yeah, a million is much better.

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Bougie with 50, but yeah, a million is much better.

00:06:07.101 --> 00:06:10.769
Okay, I mean, I'm just just in percentage wise of that total club revenue, the the rackets department budget.

00:06:10.769 --> 00:06:16.711
It should be higher, but national average is three percent of that, so you would be at 300 000.

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Crazy small right well, no less than that right.

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Yeah, you're right, sorry.

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Uh, 30 000, yeah, so let's do it.

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Let's do a 10 million.

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Let me just get my calculator out here.

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It's early in the morning I'm horrible at math too, and I was like wait a second, wait a second, let's do 10 million right.

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10 million, I think it's stiffed.

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I'm gonna, I'm doing it on my calculator.

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10 million times, uh, three percent, three hundred thousand dollars, that's what I mean.

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10 million dollars is your full revenue, club's revenue, food and beverage, everything golf.

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Your budget for your rackets department is $300,000.

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That's the national average.

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Now, out of that, 55% is your max for payroll $165,000.

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It's not a lot, is it?

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So that's where we're really squeezed as a rackets department.

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Because in that also you probably have to account for you know you can't just hire one person at that number or two people at half, that you have to go less because of insurances and just you know all the other things I mean.

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I look at you know travel expenses.

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You know I pay my guys.

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They're coming into the clubs for the summer.

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I pay their expenses to go to get there.

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So yeah, there are costs there.

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You can say that's a cost of doing business, not payroll, but I kind of lump it into payroll.

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I'm a toughie.

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Is now 3%.

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Like you said, that's average.

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Is that a good number?

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Do you think it should be higher?

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And obviously it probably varies on the club.

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Some clubs take rackets a lot more serious than maybe other clubs, so is 3% good?

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I?

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think 3% is low.

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But tennis is always in rackets.

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Pickleball now Padel is always an amenity to a golf club, country club, it's just secondary and so you know they're not going to give us a ton of money.

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But hey, it is what it is.

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You work with what you have.

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You're always fighting, you know.

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That's why I kind of like running tennis-only clubs or rackets-only clubs.

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I don't have to fight for housing with food and beverage.

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You know, yeah, yeah, with food and beverage.

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You know, yeah, yeah.

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So what was the takeaway from, like, the audience, what were they walking away from that?

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You know how were they feeling and, yeah, go ahead.

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And then the follow-up question is gonna be how do they, how do you start that conversation to get that number higher and move things in a more positive direction?

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Well, that came up because that was a follow-up question by them.

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Great, Well done, Denny.

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So the people actually really enjoyed that.

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The people loved it because we dealt with actual business scenarios.

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We weren't saying hypothetically, we're saying this is what your percentage should be, this is what you know, this is how many people we could actually hire with that figure.

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This is that kind of thing.

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The, the follow-up question was and it was part of our presentation was how do you justify your budget, you know, to the, to the governors or to your management?

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And I said look, we're, we're, we're inexpensive department to the membership.

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Like you don't have a tennis minimum, you have a food and beverage minimum, but you don't have to take tennis lessons, but you have to eat at the club, right?

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So we don't cost the members that much.

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And so I use that as a real talking point is that there's no minimum for the tennis or rackets department.

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There's no minimum for the golf department, only for food and beverage, because food and beverage is so expensive.

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Yeah.

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So from that makeshift $300K, you said no more than 55% being used on personnel.

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If you work with clubs all the time, okay, so you go into a club.

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That's their number.

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Where is your head at?

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How are you going to get the most bang for buck for that $300K?

00:10:12.628 --> 00:10:13.028
Lots of ways.

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First of all, you, you going to get the most bang for buck for that 300K.

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Lots of ways.

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First of all, you got to grow the revenue right, because you're going to make more money, the bigger the program, right.

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So your budget, that's your budget, that's your cost analysis right.

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But if you can actually have more people on the court, the more people you have on the court, the more that revenue.

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What your cost foundation is, your payroll will go up, because there's we work on commissions as as pros right, golf and tennis and any pro so yeah, but the club and you as a director and you as an employee will make more if you're busier and you're, you're getting more of a commission.

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So I always try to grow the revenue.

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Where can we grow revenue like?

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Just just for example, today, one of the clubs called me this morning.

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They said had we've got tons of Sophie Bella in clothing.

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I'm like, okay, well, let's put it on sale.

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Well, hold on, slow down.

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Why put it on sale right now?

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Was it March 1st, february 28th, whatever?

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Let's tie something into that.

00:11:06.442 --> 00:11:09.043
So my manager there said what do you mean?

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I said, well, let's think about this.

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What do you mean?

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I said, well, let's think about this Last week ladies teams we have six of them Practices were a little slow.

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So this week if you come to your ladies practice, 50% off.

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Sophie Bella, now you see that's including.

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So I yeah, I try to cross sell all the time, right.

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People.

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People get addicted to discounts.

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They don't get addicted to like free, or when there's and and I'm a, I'm a big fan of like, instead of discounting per se but like, how can you, you know, add more to it?

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Or like, hey, you, you can get it, but you still have to do x, y and z.

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There still has to be some other aspects to it.

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So that's great.

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Instead of just going, oh, discount, it's like.

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Now, there's like something to it, there's some like enticement, there's some, you know, now it puts people like over the edge, like, oh, now, oh, of course, I'm definitely gonna go now.

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Like they're gonna make that a little bit more conscious effort, because people love a good sale too.

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They love a good sale, but I'm not gonna give the sale away for nothing, right?

00:12:05.765 --> 00:12:08.740
so you know it's the same with you know bogo.

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You know bogo, buy one, get one free.

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You've got to buy two.

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Your average order goes up.

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I love combining.

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If I know my singles championship is slow, it doesn't have a lot of signups, I'll say, hey, if you sign up for the singles we'll string two rackets for free.

00:12:30.008 --> 00:12:34.322
It just gets more people on the club property, right?

00:12:34.322 --> 00:12:37.755
But I love, when I'm doing clothing sales, to take that, so I do.

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The first one I have is my big spring camp.

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I have, you know, 60 people, eight pros, eight courts going and everybody in camp gets 15% off clothes that week, free private lesson with any of the guest pros, right, 20% off stringing because it's all tune-ups.

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You know we're all seasonal clubs, so um and boy does that.

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And a free lunch.

00:12:57.181 --> 00:13:00.339
And but there's no such thing as a free lunch, right, because you're paying for camp.

00:13:00.339 --> 00:13:07.303
I've built the price of the lunch into the camp price, partially, right yeah, no, that's, it's.

00:13:07.524 --> 00:13:11.756
Uh, there's a really great book that I have uh called 100, 100 million dollar offers.

00:13:11.756 --> 00:13:13.283
Uh, that's great it.

00:13:13.283 --> 00:13:14.985
I'm going to read that, which is just all about just like offerings.

00:13:14.985 --> 00:13:18.063
I'll send you the link and link in show notes.

00:13:18.063 --> 00:13:19.899
But no, it's just.

00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:20.763
And there's another one.

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It's like there's other books, books like it.

00:13:24.024 --> 00:13:27.105
But it's just like hey, how do you bundle it together?

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How do you make it so like, how do you make the offer so good?

00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:31.682
People feel dumb saying no Right.

00:13:32.082 --> 00:13:34.769
Exactly, and we're doing it just in simple ways too.

00:13:34.769 --> 00:13:38.345
You know, buy five lessons, get a six for free.

00:13:38.345 --> 00:13:43.284
You know, a new pro comes in, I really want to get his or her book filled.

00:13:43.284 --> 00:13:49.904
So I'll say, hey, there's a discount on this pro, right, and that takes business sometimes away from one of my established pros.

00:13:49.904 --> 00:13:54.581
But the established pros know so many people, so you're going to get another opening hour of an established pro.

00:13:54.581 --> 00:13:59.749
That someone, someone will fill that hour, but you've moved somebody that you know to a new pro that nobody knows.

00:14:04.774 --> 00:14:06.938
Yeah, no, and that's, and that's a great way to.

00:14:06.958 --> 00:14:12.386
You know, quote unquote, like, share the wealth also, but like, but I feel like then it's, it's getting.

00:14:12.386 --> 00:14:19.961
You know, I'm I'm big on getting different perspectives, different takeaways, because everyone teaches and does things a little bit different and people connect with different people.

00:14:19.961 --> 00:14:32.702
So you might always go to the pro, but if there's the new person who comes in, it's like, hey, but you might actually click really well with them and they might be able to fix this one little tweak that maybe the pro didn't do yet or they just have that different way of describing something.

00:14:32.702 --> 00:14:32.842
Like.

00:14:32.842 --> 00:14:37.221
That's also a big thing is, you know, the pro might say something the same thing over, but it doesn't click.

00:14:37.221 --> 00:14:41.706
But then someone else says it a slightly different way and you're like, oh, now I get it and that's what it just takes that.

00:14:42.008 --> 00:14:51.083
That's what the there was this one seminar there that was talking about.

00:14:51.083 --> 00:14:55.749
That is how you, if it's not working, Try another way, Try another word, Try another curve, Try another.

00:14:55.749 --> 00:14:57.171
You know it's.

00:14:57.171 --> 00:14:58.878
There's no right or wrong way in coaching.

00:14:59.778 --> 00:15:02.664
No, there's, yeah, I like that.

00:15:02.664 --> 00:15:05.995
That's all, man, that was so good so.

00:15:05.995 --> 00:15:08.201
So so to to go back.

00:15:08.201 --> 00:15:11.347
So you said that you would try to you know, raise, raise that number.

00:15:11.347 --> 00:15:13.107
But let's just say you had 300k.

00:15:13.107 --> 00:15:19.611
How do you allocate, like you, as like the pro, because you help you, you come in and help groups and clubs all all the time.

00:15:19.611 --> 00:15:23.214
So let's just say, 300 is your like, it's your limit yeah, so then you've got it.

00:15:23.274 --> 00:15:29.857
So then you got to figure out how okay, so if that's your limit and it's in 165, is your band like your base, right for payroll?

00:15:29.857 --> 00:15:39.003
You got to find an inexpensive director, right, because I mean, if it's, if it's a seasonal club, maybe you could work with 165.

00:15:39.003 --> 00:15:39.524
It's year-round?

00:15:39.524 --> 00:15:40.706
No way, right.

00:15:40.706 --> 00:15:42.818
But we're taking a hypothetical situation here.

00:15:42.818 --> 00:15:45.706
10 million, right, but um, but yes, you have to.

00:15:45.947 --> 00:15:51.721
So what I would, what I would do, first thing I would do is take 55, put that on payroll, then break that payroll figure down.

00:15:51.721 --> 00:15:53.955
Okay, let's look at your revenues.

00:15:53.955 --> 00:15:55.577
How many pros do you need?

00:15:55.577 --> 00:15:59.788
What's your average uh number of students or members per class?

00:15:59.788 --> 00:16:00.876
So do you need two?

00:16:00.876 --> 00:16:04.946
Two assistants, one assistant, one inexpensive part-time assistant.

00:16:04.946 --> 00:16:10.315
Trying to figure that breakdown, so you can fit into that 165, which is the hypothetical number we were using right.

00:16:10.315 --> 00:16:12.823
Then the other 45 is going to be your cost of doing business, which is you hypothetical number we were using right.

00:16:12.823 --> 00:16:23.201
Then the other 45% is going to be your cost of doing business, which is, you know, all the technical aids, the balls, the liability insurance for your pros, education, continuing education for your pros.

00:16:24.375 --> 00:16:25.499
I mean, it goes on and on.

00:16:25.499 --> 00:16:31.221
You know court, you know court maintenance is in there, right, yeah, that's that's a big chunk.

00:16:31.221 --> 00:16:35.660
If you're indoor lights and heat, I mean's that's a big chunk.

00:16:35.660 --> 00:16:37.467
Um, if you're indoor lights and heat, I mean that's a massive chunk.

00:16:37.467 --> 00:16:38.150
Right, you don't think about that.

00:16:38.150 --> 00:16:38.491
You know squash.

00:16:38.491 --> 00:16:39.414
I've had that fight all the time.

00:16:39.414 --> 00:16:53.759
You have an indoor court tennis and you have a squash court squashes year-round indoor and yet tennis mainly often shares 50 50, but outside in the summer we are really squashing that budget, squash, squashing the budget.

00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.155
So yeah, you have, you know, and, and, and and.

00:16:57.155 --> 00:17:01.143
These indoor places are, are, are propping up all over the place for Padel.

00:17:01.143 --> 00:17:14.519
I mean those costs of, of heating and lighting and ACing, those it's expensive and this might be a dumb question, but for for Do you have to extra factor to clean?

00:17:14.539 --> 00:17:14.882
those walls.

00:17:14.882 --> 00:17:15.727
Is that a dumb thing?

00:17:15.727 --> 00:17:19.023
No, To me it's like you're going to need those walls cleaned.

00:17:19.023 --> 00:17:22.084
They're going to get scum people touching them kids I mean.

00:17:22.084 --> 00:17:22.865
It's going to look gross.

00:17:22.865 --> 00:17:24.980
I'm not being paid by Windex.

00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:25.942
But that's a big bill.

00:17:25.942 --> 00:17:29.261
Yeah, no, I mean it takes time.

00:17:29.261 --> 00:17:34.422
Those take time because you've got to get the big squeegee, you've got the pole and you've got to go up and down In the morning.

00:17:34.422 --> 00:17:46.755
Sometimes here we're outdoors with Padel in Florida I just finished a three-court project here and the dew is so heavy at certain times that you have to squeegee off the dew if you want to get on before 10 am, which is another cost.

00:17:46.755 --> 00:17:49.055
I mean someone's got to do it Time.

00:17:49.055 --> 00:18:01.050
Time right, yeah, and that came up in our conversation is like say, I'm the director of a club, a department, club department, and I spend my time on the database.

00:18:01.050 --> 00:18:03.615
How do I figure that into my cost of doing business?

00:18:03.615 --> 00:18:12.569
If I'm setting up a Google database or adding people to North Star or something like that, how is that time ever compensated to me?

00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:15.891
I've got to count that as a cost, because if it's not me, it's gonna be somebody else.

00:18:15.891 --> 00:18:16.755
I'm gonna have to pay that person.

00:18:16.875 --> 00:18:33.502
so I gotta think about that yeah, what are what's what are low average in I don't want to say high, because it's all relative like what are what are salaries like for positions like like what are solid salaries that get quality people?

00:18:33.864 --> 00:18:37.319
you know this is the big discussion in the industry, isn't it?

00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:46.540
thank you for throwing me in the middle of it no, well, I'm just saying because it's all relative, also because you know from for me, from the entertainment, you know people ask me like, what's the?

00:18:46.540 --> 00:18:47.383
I'm like there is no.

00:18:47.383 --> 00:18:48.445
Everyone's different.

00:18:48.445 --> 00:18:50.578
Everyone has brings their own experience.

00:18:50.578 --> 00:18:53.006
You don't know where they're coming from, trap, you know so.

00:18:53.006 --> 00:18:54.199
Are they at the fly?

00:18:54.199 --> 00:18:55.102
Do they have to drive?

00:18:55.102 --> 00:18:55.723
Are they close by?

00:18:55.723 --> 00:18:57.980
There's so many different elements.

00:18:58.101 --> 00:18:58.722
Are they an employer?

00:18:58.722 --> 00:18:59.506
Are they a contractor?

00:19:00.755 --> 00:19:02.362
Well, for entertainment not so much.

00:19:03.696 --> 00:19:04.337
Oh for entertainment.

00:19:04.337 --> 00:19:05.741
You're always a contractor, right?

00:19:05.741 --> 00:19:08.208
Well, yeah, unless you're on a ship.

00:19:09.696 --> 00:19:11.103
No, you're still a contractor, really.

00:19:11.535 --> 00:19:11.857
Yeah, how can no?

00:19:11.857 --> 00:19:12.605
No, you're still a contractor, really.

00:19:12.605 --> 00:19:13.881
Yeah, how can you work for someone else when you're on ship?

00:19:14.942 --> 00:19:16.285
uh, it's like I forget how.

00:19:16.585 --> 00:19:18.848
No, it's it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a term.

00:19:18.848 --> 00:19:21.181
Yeah, there's a term, um, yeah, because so?

00:19:21.181 --> 00:19:22.987
So contracting, that's a great point.

00:19:22.987 --> 00:19:26.922
You know, contractors versus employees contractors gonna be cheaper to the club, right?

00:19:26.922 --> 00:19:34.465
But you don't have the control over the contractor contracting and say, no, I can't, I can't show that time I'll go teach somewhere else for 50 bucks more.

00:19:34.465 --> 00:19:36.731
I mean compensation.

00:19:36.731 --> 00:19:38.557
Look, it's different around the country.

00:19:38.557 --> 00:19:49.726
Okay, so I was talking to someone and I won't say who, but they're in North Carolina and they're at a very nice club and they're at 60 bucks an hour for a lesson.

00:19:49.726 --> 00:19:54.221
I think that's low, right, I mean, don't you't you?

00:19:54.221 --> 00:19:58.701
I mean, put that in perspective to what you I hate to say this, but what you're paying your babysitter, right?

00:19:58.701 --> 00:20:03.701
Um, you know, babysitting is an enormous task, responsibility.

00:20:03.701 --> 00:20:07.574
But tennis teaching is a profession, you know.

00:20:07.574 --> 00:20:08.955
I guess babysitting is a profession too.

00:20:08.976 --> 00:20:11.359
That's probably rude of me to say that, but I would.

00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:12.221
I would.

00:20:12.221 --> 00:20:15.865
I would think that you know a highly qualified instructor?

00:20:15.865 --> 00:20:18.650
Um, of course it's a leisure activity.

00:20:18.650 --> 00:20:20.998
Uh, should, should be highly compensated?

00:20:20.998 --> 00:20:28.328
Um, I mean, sometimes the dentist director and the golf director are the highest paid employees at the club, not the general manager.

00:20:28.328 --> 00:20:42.042
Um, oftentimes that happens and I we've talked about that, not you and me, but I've talked about it at conferences and with other GMs Um, you know, obviously, northeast and West coast, florida, those are your, those are your cash.

00:20:42.242 --> 00:20:48.968
You know cash markets there, that's where you're probably going to make the most as a director or in the profession and the club profession.

00:20:48.968 --> 00:20:52.931
Um, elsewhere is not quite as, probably as strong.

00:20:52.931 --> 00:20:55.311
Texas is a very strong region.

00:20:55.311 --> 00:20:59.564
So you know, those are the spots to look for if you want to, you know.

00:20:59.564 --> 00:21:02.821
But then again, cost of living is higher, you know.

00:21:02.821 --> 00:21:10.505
You could say to me like, say, a club up in Greenwich, connecticut, a director of rackets might make $350,000 a year.

00:21:10.505 --> 00:21:12.228
Okay, that's not unheard of.

00:21:12.228 --> 00:21:25.698
But the cost of living up there, putting your kids possibly into private education, um, taxes, the tax base, um, commutation, as you said, commutation, are you driving, are you taking the train?

00:21:25.698 --> 00:21:33.026
It's, it adds up and so the $350,000 a year might, might not be enough, yeah.

00:21:33.967 --> 00:21:45.839
And do you think sometimes to some clubs because they price it at a point let's just for all purposes say $60 an hour do sometimes people think that's too cheap and they just go?

00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.441
You know what?

00:21:46.441 --> 00:21:47.442
I don't think I really need that less.

00:21:47.442 --> 00:22:00.590
Do people start to question sometimes, and do you see a different level when people pay more and kind of get that and they, they pay more, they expect more, but they also take it more, more seriously?

00:22:00.971 --> 00:22:12.719
yes, yeah, I mean there are, I mean golf pros, I know that are charging 250 an hour, right and, and people don't bat an eye because that pro has really gained their respect.

00:22:12.719 --> 00:22:18.337
They, they value his position or her position in the, in the industry, in the PGA.

00:22:18.337 --> 00:22:21.269
And I, you know, no, no one's.

00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:27.498
Once in a while you'll get someone that says, hey, that that price, that lesson's a little steep or that clinic's a little steep.

00:22:27.498 --> 00:22:31.548
But in terms of private lessons I rarely get a complaint about price.

00:22:31.548 --> 00:22:34.090
What'll happen is people just won't take a second lesson.

00:22:34.090 --> 00:22:36.094
If they think it's, they won't tell you, they just don't want to pay.

00:22:37.215 --> 00:22:44.297
But I think also, when you're starting a season or you have a new employee in, to price that professional at the right spot.

00:22:44.297 --> 00:22:47.146
You know they're always that professional is always going to want more.

00:22:47.146 --> 00:22:56.198
If they're getting a percentage of that lesson, they're going to want you to put that lesson at a hundred bucks, 120 bucks if they're getting 60% or whatever it is of that lesson.

00:22:56.198 --> 00:23:02.836
So you've got to take that person and say, okay, I've had this person here five years.

00:23:02.836 --> 00:23:03.621
I've had this person here three years.

00:23:03.621 --> 00:23:07.532
This person knows this many members, you're fresh to our marketplace.

00:23:07.532 --> 00:23:09.538
Maybe you have a better, stronger resume.

00:23:09.538 --> 00:23:14.757
I've got to figure out where to put you in terms of the ladder structure of pricing.

00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:21.690
Yeah, what are the averages or what are like the normal commission structures that you see for?

00:23:22.492 --> 00:23:23.255
the it ranges.

00:23:23.255 --> 00:23:26.573
I'd say it ranges from 50% at some clubs.

00:23:26.573 --> 00:23:32.992
Some clubs is lower, but I'd say that yeah, yeah, but then again the salary might be higher, See.

00:23:33.606 --> 00:23:35.630
I was just going to say there's probably other factors.

00:23:36.305 --> 00:23:37.688
Yeah, their salary might be higher.

00:23:37.688 --> 00:23:42.707
Higher a stipend might be higher if they're contracting housing, housing, right housing yep.

00:23:42.826 --> 00:23:44.971
so, um, you know so.

00:23:44.971 --> 00:23:56.244
So, for example, for me, I'll just be honest um, I, I have to pay for everyone's housing, so all my deals, I'm the land, I'm the lessor, so I, I go and rent the housing.

00:23:56.244 --> 00:23:58.446
The club doesn't, the club doesn't, the club doesn't want that liability.

00:23:58.446 --> 00:23:59.931
That's why they've outsourced to us.

00:23:59.931 --> 00:24:09.362
So I go rent all the housing in Colorado, in Massachusetts, and then I build that into the package for the pro right.

00:24:09.362 --> 00:24:14.372
So I'll say, okay, I'm subsidizing, I personally I'm subsidizing your housing.

00:24:14.372 --> 00:24:19.229
And also remember housing is a benefit in kind, so it is taxable.

00:24:19.229 --> 00:24:20.333
People forget that.

00:24:21.365 --> 00:24:22.669
So you have to really show.

00:24:22.669 --> 00:24:25.737
Yes, especially if you're a contractor, you have to show cost of doing business.

00:24:25.737 --> 00:24:37.597
So that's a huge piece of the puzzle with the housing and so I build in the housing costs into they pay.

00:24:37.597 --> 00:24:40.053
They pay a bit because otherwise they'd have to pay tax.

00:24:40.053 --> 00:24:48.538
They got it for free, but you know, and then also you have to build that into your commission rates because I'm taking a hit on the housing.

00:24:48.538 --> 00:24:59.740
I'm trying to get them not to pay full market value because they probably can't afford to live in Greenwich, Connecticut, or Falmouth, Mass or Vail, Colorado, you know, for a month or two or three.

00:25:00.365 --> 00:25:01.923
Those are high rent districts.

00:25:01.923 --> 00:25:10.455
Is it safe to say, too, that, like do maybe not enough people and when I say people, I mean both the the racket side and the club side?

00:25:10.455 --> 00:25:15.136
Is it safe to say that, like they can negotiate, they can like work a deal?

00:25:15.136 --> 00:25:21.394
Do they sometimes forget that and just and just go like, oh, we only have X amount and it's just like no, like both parties.

00:25:21.394 --> 00:25:25.400
Hey, why don't you dance a little bit, like, why don't you find a win-win for both parties?

00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:28.346
Like, do you do you see that maybe that doesn't happen enough either?

00:25:28.386 --> 00:25:35.471
People are kind of a little bit more You're talking, the professional coming to work, or the director, or the club.

00:25:36.712 --> 00:25:56.178
Well, I'm thinking both sides, but also, like you know, yeah, so I'm talking from both the club perspective and the racket side and just kind of like both Like do most, sometimes like they just don't negotiate enough or just don't think to negotiate.

00:25:56.198 --> 00:26:00.571
So a mentor of mine once said when you're negotiating with commissions it's like taxes, right.

00:26:01.815 --> 00:26:05.390
So maybe like, not so much like the commission, but like the overall package.

00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:07.655
Well, just remember this the club always wins.

00:26:07.655 --> 00:26:08.257
That's what he said.

00:26:08.257 --> 00:26:11.232
The club always wins because they're on this fixed percentage.

00:26:11.232 --> 00:26:12.636
Right so the club will take.

00:26:12.636 --> 00:26:16.493
And it used to be that the club never took from a department, right?

00:26:16.493 --> 00:26:21.767
But now the clubs and especially as they're outsourcing to me they're going to take a percentage out of the total revenue bill.

00:26:21.767 --> 00:26:28.047
Right, so if I make a million dollars on court, they're going to take 5, 10, 15% of that.

00:26:28.047 --> 00:26:32.096
But whatever you do, however much money you make, they're taking it to the house.

00:26:32.096 --> 00:26:33.830
Right, that's a fixed percentage.

00:26:33.830 --> 00:26:40.665
The house always wins, house always wins.

00:26:40.665 --> 00:26:42.770
So you have to think of that as you're negotiating the package with your new employee or contractor.

00:26:42.770 --> 00:26:43.511
Right so, take that off the table.

00:26:43.511 --> 00:26:47.099
No matter how much bigger you make that program, the house always wins.

00:26:47.484 --> 00:26:50.367
Ok, so clubhouse.

00:26:50.367 --> 00:26:58.076
So when you're negotiating the whole package, yeah, you have to make that person aware that you're providing them housing.

00:26:58.076 --> 00:27:02.601
If it's housing, you're providing them travel expenses.

00:27:02.601 --> 00:27:06.307
If they're doing that, you're providing.

00:27:06.307 --> 00:27:11.105
I mean, I'm not going to make a contractor go buy their own tennis balls at a club, right?

00:27:11.105 --> 00:27:15.675
So all those costs are part of having that person.

00:27:15.675 --> 00:27:18.310
So I'm like, if you're a true contractor, you got to bring your own tennis balls.

00:27:18.310 --> 00:27:19.430
You got to bring your own pickup tubes.

00:27:19.430 --> 00:27:19.892
You got to bring up.

00:27:19.892 --> 00:27:21.771
No, they have to rent those.

00:27:21.771 --> 00:27:23.893
So I say it's a small rent, right?

00:27:23.893 --> 00:27:34.361
So that's the cost of doing business for you being here and using this wonderful facility and treating our members like wonderful people.

00:27:35.145 --> 00:27:36.327
And there is a cost of business.

00:27:36.327 --> 00:27:36.769
They have to.

00:27:36.769 --> 00:27:39.413
They just think, as you said, so wisely.

00:27:39.413 --> 00:27:42.346
Then they're just thinking 50 bucks an hour, I can do eight hours.

00:27:42.346 --> 00:27:42.987
It's 400.

00:27:42.987 --> 00:27:44.711
A day times seven, that's 2800 bucks.

00:27:44.711 --> 00:27:46.054
No, it doesn't work like that.

00:27:46.054 --> 00:27:48.326
There's a lot more to it than that.

00:27:48.948 --> 00:27:49.449
Yeah, what?

00:27:49.449 --> 00:27:51.534
When are you going to be behind the desk for me?

00:27:51.534 --> 00:27:53.386
You know what that came up in our, in our.

00:27:53.386 --> 00:27:55.893
You know the, the new people to industry.

00:27:55.893 --> 00:28:00.854
They just want to be on the court making money, but you need support staff too.

00:28:00.854 --> 00:28:09.579
So are you going to have support staff or are you going to rotate the instructors behind the desk for a little bit and bring those support staff costs down?

00:28:09.579 --> 00:28:14.153
Well, you know what my answer is Pros are going behind the desk a little bit and rotate.

00:28:14.153 --> 00:28:19.869
You know you can string a racket and cover the front desk so you can still make extra money while you're covering the phone.

00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:23.778
Yeah, it's a lot of that Same with golf.

00:28:23.778 --> 00:28:41.452
I mean, golf is much further ahead than we are on the racket side because golf, the PGA, the coaching, the teaching, the mentoring makes all of those students and and professionals new professionals work behind all the different spots in the in the golf shop.

00:28:41.452 --> 00:28:43.319
They understand, you know.

00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:45.709
So rackets isn't quite there yet we're getting there.

00:28:45.709 --> 00:28:49.423
I think we're getting there in a positive note are you?

00:28:49.724 --> 00:28:51.367
are you behind that movement?

00:28:52.170 --> 00:28:54.755
for sure I, because it helps you as a person.

00:28:54.755 --> 00:28:56.459
It's not just to help me.

00:28:56.459 --> 00:28:58.326
It helps that professional better understand the business's not just to help me.

00:28:58.326 --> 00:29:01.838
It helps that professional better understand the business that they're entering or that they have entered.

00:29:03.185 --> 00:29:09.615
Going back to the conversation on the panel of what you were all talking about, it's the stuff that people want to know about they don't know about.

00:29:09.615 --> 00:29:26.596
And the same kind of goes like what separates sometimes, I think from my perspective, a good GM from a great GM is the ones who've, you know, started at the extreme bottom, working all the weird little jobs and details and kind of you know at least had to do.

00:29:26.596 --> 00:29:47.688
You know, maybe their mentor or their boss made them, you know, start off in the food and beverage, out by the pool, in like the in the shack doing whatever, and then just all these little different, odd positions that even if they weren't at them long, they could at least wrap their heads around and understand and kind of put themselves in somebody else's feet Like they can.

00:29:47.688 --> 00:29:48.811
Just it's that perspective.

00:29:49.453 --> 00:29:53.213
Of course, and being a team player.

00:29:53.213 --> 00:29:58.951
That person who's done all that has proven themselves as a team player.

00:29:58.951 --> 00:30:07.806
And I you know I'm not trying to float my own boat, but I strung a lot of rackets at midnight so the members had them at 6am the next day when they came for their 6am lesson.

00:30:07.806 --> 00:30:13.113
You've got to do that kind of work and it makes you a better person in the long run.

00:30:13.113 --> 00:30:14.971
You may not think of it at the time.

00:30:14.971 --> 00:30:23.967
God, I'm not getting compensated enough for this.

00:30:23.967 --> 00:30:26.192
You know petty job, but when you go to an interview and they ask you, have you done that?

00:30:26.192 --> 00:30:27.596
And they ask your reference, does that do that?

00:30:27.596 --> 00:30:30.470
They're going to hire you because they know you understand customer service.

00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:38.333
They understand that you get the business side of things and that there's not always compensation for the little menial tasks that we all have to do and that there's not always compensation for the little menial tasks that we all have to do.

00:30:38.353 --> 00:30:40.316
Yeah, look, you know we're in 2025 now.

00:30:40.316 --> 00:30:43.240
Any trends that you're seeing good, bad.

00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:51.248
Any trends looking forward?

00:30:51.248 --> 00:30:53.335
Are there things clubs that got to stop doing that they're doing?

00:30:53.335 --> 00:30:56.224
What's the view of the world from Ed Shanifee's perspective for 2025?

00:30:56.224 --> 00:30:57.046
The view of the world from Ed.

00:30:57.066 --> 00:30:58.228
Shanifee's perspective for 2025?

00:30:58.228 --> 00:30:58.228
.

00:30:58.228 --> 00:31:03.936
You know the wait lists are dwindling, so clubs have to really pick up their game.

00:31:03.936 --> 00:31:04.659
I mean they have.

00:31:04.659 --> 00:31:05.519
I mean clubs have.

00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:07.346
I mean during COVID they did.

00:31:07.346 --> 00:31:20.654
I think we all were a little tired after COVID as managers in the industry and I think we're going to have to be freshened up again because the wait lists are shortening and, you know, member turnover is back to normal.

00:31:20.654 --> 00:31:22.410
That's one trend I've seen.

00:31:22.410 --> 00:31:29.554
The second trend I'm really seeing is more directly concerned with the different departments golf and tennis.

00:31:29.554 --> 00:31:34.394
I'm really pushing, and so are a lot of people at the three conferences I've been at this year.

00:31:34.905 --> 00:31:39.156
I saw you at the CMAA is dynamic pricing.

00:31:39.156 --> 00:31:40.066
You know how.

00:31:40.066 --> 00:31:43.074
Hotels you go to a hotel room, right.

00:31:43.074 --> 00:31:47.114
Flights, flights If it's crowded, it's more expensive, right?

00:31:47.114 --> 00:31:49.673
Well, why don't we do that in the club business?

00:31:49.673 --> 00:31:51.372
I'm trying to get the software providers to do it.

00:31:51.372 --> 00:31:59.219
So if all the pros are booked on the golf side and there's one hour at 1030, that hour should be more expensive.

00:31:59.219 --> 00:32:09.069
If there's nobody booked at 2 pm, you should be able to get a nice, cheap, inexpensive golf lesson, right?

00:32:09.069 --> 00:32:15.038
If your clinic isn't full at 8 am, well, maybe at midnight the night before the price drops and then everyone tries to get in.

00:32:15.038 --> 00:32:22.547
It's like booking your flights on a Tuesday.

00:32:22.547 --> 00:32:24.009
Right, it's the best day to do it, or is it Wednesday, I can't remember.

00:32:24.009 --> 00:32:30.928
I'm waiting to book my trip to Vail because I'm watching the prices, but dynamic pricing is huge and I think we're missing a trick.

00:32:30.928 --> 00:32:36.083
In fitness and the spas, everyone wants to do everything between 8 and 12.

00:32:36.083 --> 00:32:40.232
Especially in florida, because it's cooler outside right?

00:32:40.614 --> 00:32:47.034
well, again, they start drinking at noon, so he's talking noon, like 8 am around here.

00:32:48.175 --> 00:32:54.655
I saw an article in the wall street journal vero beach and sebastian highest per capita alcohol intake in the country.

00:32:54.655 --> 00:32:56.205
Trust me, I can believe it.

00:32:56.366 --> 00:33:00.440
It's unbelievable, but lowest lowest duis, which is weird.

00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:01.964
But no, I'm kidding.

00:33:03.970 --> 00:33:08.846
No, I don't know that stat, but I'd be surprised, but anyhow.

00:33:08.846 --> 00:33:10.509
So why don't we look?

00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:17.099
If you want your lesson at the time you want it, you have to pay for it a little bit extra because we're creating that time for you, right?

00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:17.846
Yeah, right Now.

00:33:17.846 --> 00:33:31.801
On the same side, I face it in a couple of clubs Like so, for example, in Massachusetts, we can't fulfill the demand for lessons because we only have two courts right out of the eight.

00:33:32.345 --> 00:33:38.335
Yeah, so for certain times of the day, for the peak times, right, so we're booked right for the summer, the mornings are done.

00:33:38.335 --> 00:33:46.453
Right Now I can, and I have raised prices a little bit because I know that our mornings are going to be, no matter what I mean.

00:33:46.453 --> 00:33:49.369
I have, I have a new pro and she's like what do you mean?

00:33:49.369 --> 00:33:52.222
I'm booked, that's like you're done from from 7 to 12.

00:33:52.222 --> 00:33:53.446
You're already booked monday through friday.

00:33:53.446 --> 00:33:55.152
And she went and looked at discussions.

00:33:55.152 --> 00:33:56.635
Holy moly, I was again.

00:33:56.635 --> 00:33:58.147
We, we book out january 15th.

00:33:58.147 --> 00:34:05.567
So you know, I could do it myself and I'm I wanted to do it this year and I, I balked.

00:34:05.567 --> 00:34:11.188
But I think we could do it through software where it's not one person or one entity making it, it's.

00:34:11.188 --> 00:34:15.525
It's like the hotels and the flights it just goes up and down and moves around.

00:34:16.166 --> 00:34:23.380
I think to play devil's advocate like, I totally get it and I agree To play devil's advocate, though I think if you're a member of a club.

00:34:26.811 --> 00:34:27.594
Yeah, I get it.

00:34:28.927 --> 00:34:30.112
That's a tough line to walk.

00:34:30.112 --> 00:34:34.974
I think some clubs can probably get away with it, others, I think there would be an outrage.

00:34:35.704 --> 00:34:55.077
So probably why I didn't do it at the club in Massachusetts is, as you said, it's a member's own club, right, yep, but these, where this is coming from especially is the new pedel pop-ups and the pickleball pop-ups, where you pay a membership of, say, a hundred bucks a month, right, and then you pay court time, okay.

00:34:55.077 --> 00:34:57.545
So there are so many models out there and that's another trend.

00:34:57.545 --> 00:35:00.172
I'm saying how many different models are happening.

00:35:00.172 --> 00:35:02.157
And it's happening with top golf too.

00:35:02.157 --> 00:35:04.722
You know, like the um, the simulators and all that.

00:35:04.722 --> 00:35:06.788
Yeah, it's really changing the club world.

00:35:06.788 --> 00:35:08.612
Because they're not member-owned clubs.

00:35:08.612 --> 00:35:17.972
We're going more and more into, you know, commercially, commercial enterprise here, and like the piddell pop-ups, the pickleball pop-ups, you're paying court time on top of a small membership.

00:35:17.972 --> 00:35:20.561
There, I think it would work.

00:35:20.561 --> 00:35:32.456
You're not going to get the outrage because you're paying a much smaller dues annually and then you are booking courts and already paying for just courts, not even instruction, just courts.

00:35:32.456 --> 00:35:36.489
So I think dynamic, dynamic pricing there, uh, would you know?

00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:56.755
or maybe even for, like the clubs, instead of maybe a you know the that dynamic pricing, maybe it's in the afternoon instead of 60 minutes, you get 80 minutes, get an extra 20 minutes of yeah, I mean, I would, you know, lesson or like something where it's like, you know, to kind of to go back to it, it's that you, you add on a little bit more.

00:35:56.755 --> 00:36:04.480
So maybe instead of like discounting and you have that like whatever, or maybe it's hey, more so, maybe, instead of like discounting and you have that like whatever, or maybe it's hey, maybe in the morning it's only 45 minutes instead of an hour, you know.

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:10.157
So, instead of changing the price, you, you, you change the time frame well, pros do that themselves, a lot of contractors.

00:36:10.217 --> 00:36:14.476
If they set their own prices, which a lot of times you know they have, they have the right to do that.

00:36:14.476 --> 00:36:17.931
But right, by the way, um, is that they'll do.

00:36:17.931 --> 00:36:19.516
They'll only take half hours.

00:36:19.516 --> 00:36:22.393
Like I know, this is the case at frenchman's Creek in the fitness department.

00:36:22.393 --> 00:36:27.070
There's a couple contractors there that say I won't book an hour, I only book half hours.

00:36:27.070 --> 00:36:33.398
So an hour, say, is $80, but they do it for $50 for the half hour.

00:36:33.398 --> 00:36:36.996
So they're making an extra $20 an hour that they wouldn't make if they booked the hour.

00:36:36.996 --> 00:36:38.351
So it's a similar kind of thing.

00:36:38.351 --> 00:36:49.331
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a trend that's going to happen more and more and I think it's coming to the club maybe not the elite member-owned clubs, but, uh, other other types of clubs.

00:36:49.371 --> 00:36:55.851
Yes, well, I think, even if it's it's worth, it's worth trying something out like it's worth, you know.

00:36:55.851 --> 00:37:00.489
I think that you know it's worth just what worst case a couple members get pissed.

00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:01.773
You throw them a bottle of wine.

00:37:01.773 --> 00:37:03.630
Hey, sorry, we were just trying some new stuff.

00:37:03.730 --> 00:37:05.114
Yeah, yeah, our bad, our bad.

00:37:05.114 --> 00:37:12.018
Sometimes, though, if you tick off a member, you get a little pink slip in the mail.

00:37:14.126 --> 00:37:20.119
At that token were they really a great member, if they're that ticked off over something so minute.

00:37:20.706 --> 00:37:30.539
And that brings up another point, like two things on that One is I had several members complain about not being able to get courts over this winter.

00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:38.786
Right, oh God, you put three Padel courts in, you took a stadium court out, we took one court out tennis and so I went and did you know?

00:37:38.786 --> 00:37:51.161
I come back with stats and say, look guys, yeah, you can't get a court at 9 am, but out of the 12 courts and all the hours available on those courts, we're only using 38% of the court available time.

00:37:51.161 --> 00:37:55.014
66% of that time the courts are empty.

00:37:55.014 --> 00:38:00.036
So just because you want to play, you can play at 2, 3, 4, 5, right.

00:38:00.036 --> 00:38:04.088
So I always come back with a reasonable stat, right, yeah.

00:38:04.088 --> 00:38:07.815
And then the other stat is and, and people giggle with this.

00:38:07.934 --> 00:38:20.211
But I look my, my and I brought this up at the presentation my stat that I love to look at is lifetime value of that membership, right, does that member spend money at your club, are they right?

00:38:20.211 --> 00:38:21.253
So I had this.

00:38:21.253 --> 00:38:33.074
You sound like as a rank hitting a forehand, it gets higher as she hits a winner.

00:38:33.074 --> 00:38:36.297
Um, you know, but yeah.

00:38:36.297 --> 00:38:38.280
So now I forgot what I'm gonna say.

00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:50.315
Um, but yeah, so you have, um, you have the average value of a membership, which I think is really important, and most of the time when someone complains to me they don't spend a lot of.

00:38:50.315 --> 00:38:55.621
The complainer is one of the people persons that doesn't spend a lot of money at the club.

00:38:55.621 --> 00:39:00.925
I call it having your caviar on a tuna budget.

00:39:00.925 --> 00:39:05.389
You can't get what you want all the time, but you can get what you need some of the time.

00:39:05.389 --> 00:39:12.958
It's a Beatles, no Rolling Stones, but yeah, I look at the average lifetime value of a member a lot.

00:39:12.958 --> 00:39:14.798
It's an important stat for me.

00:39:15.460 --> 00:39:17.121
Yeah, no, that's good.

00:39:18.184 --> 00:39:18.704
This is really good.

00:39:18.704 --> 00:39:19.967
I think we covered a lot there.

00:39:19.967 --> 00:39:36.081
I think 2025, as I said, the wait lists are going to shrink more and I think you're going to see some of the big clubs holding back a little on capital expenses because costs are getting so high.

00:39:36.081 --> 00:39:40.494
The problem with that, of course, is the longer you wait to.

00:39:40.514 --> 00:39:54.132
You know I was at, and what brought me this up to me, brought me to think about this, was I was at saddlebrook resort for the ptr, the professional tennis registry, and saddlebrook was built in the 70s and they haven't really updated it and and there's a big plan to renovate it.

00:39:54.132 --> 00:39:58.144
It's one of the biggest resorts you know in in on the west coast.

00:39:58.144 --> 00:40:01.248
It was a granddaddy of them all back when it was built.

00:40:01.248 --> 00:40:13.498
Now it looks really dated and I know they have massive plans to update all the housing, all the rooms, the main clubhouse, the golf, the tennis areas and the golf course.

00:40:13.498 --> 00:40:18.882
But I think the longer they wait to do that, the higher that cost is really.

00:40:18.882 --> 00:40:38.487
I mean, these costs are going up exponentially because of inflation and because of everything, everything, yeah, so, um, yeah, so I think the clubs you'll see clubs really trying to balance that, you know, uh, whether they wait or whether they hit their members up for some more money now and do it now and try to save in the short term rather than the longterm.

00:40:38.507 --> 00:40:41.155
Yeah, Then they run, they run into.

00:40:41.155 --> 00:40:48.117
You know what are they missing out on by not updating and modernizing and getting ready for the new generation of members coming in.

00:40:48.117 --> 00:40:51.693
And yeah, it's definitely going to be a unique couple of years.

00:40:51.693 --> 00:40:53.826
I think you know a lot of the the clubs.

00:40:53.826 --> 00:41:03.934
Clubs got a huge boost and I think the ones who needed the boost and got it and did the right things with that boost are going to continue to do fine.

00:41:03.934 --> 00:41:08.175
I think there's a lot of clubs a lot quote, unquote a lot.

00:41:08.175 --> 00:41:10.032
I think there's a handful of clubs.

00:41:10.032 --> 00:41:34.416
There are clubs that got that boost just like, yes, we're back and they didn't do anything to help themselves, help their clubs, help their numbers, their members, their financials, and now things are starting to go back to normal and they're going, oh, like they didn't fix, they didn't update, they didn't do anything, and now they're back to square one, like they didn't take the blessing that they got and run with it.

00:41:34.416 --> 00:41:36.092
They took it and took it for granted.

00:41:37.625 --> 00:41:39.085
Right and I think they should have.

00:41:40.047 --> 00:41:42.467
You know it came up again at the PTR.

00:41:42.507 --> 00:42:00.759
If you're not on the PEDEL path, you're probably a little late to the game right now, because if you do it in two or three years time it's going to cost two or three times more and you could have done it when you had all that extra cash lying around and the wait list which guarantees you capital expense income when you have those initiation fees coming in.

00:42:00.759 --> 00:42:08.463
So yeah, if you didn't take advantage of the cash at the time, you're probably not doing great in the next two years.

00:42:08.463 --> 00:42:12.416
If you did as you said, denny, you're going to be fine as a club.

00:42:12.416 --> 00:42:20.298
I do think we're going to see the spend at clubs diminish slightly by members over the next couple of years.

00:42:20.298 --> 00:42:36.565
I think people are going to tighten up their wallets and wallets and it's going to be an interesting ride for the next few years and I think we're going to be there to watch it and we're in the middle of it and it's a wonderful business to be in because, like any other business, it's intriguing and you can learn from it every day.

00:42:37.708 --> 00:42:38.851
There's a lot more competition.

00:42:38.851 --> 00:42:41.777
So I think it's so much they don't want to spend money at the club.

00:42:41.777 --> 00:42:45.775
It's now people want an experience and they're willing to go wherever that is.

00:42:45.775 --> 00:42:46.757
If it's at the club, great.

00:42:46.757 --> 00:42:52.789
There's a lot of great experiences they can get at meals for show, for anything not at the club.

00:42:52.789 --> 00:42:56.275
So I think it's clubs have to think outside the box.

00:42:56.275 --> 00:43:01.572
It's doing different things, trying stuff, doing different things, trying stuff, seeing what works, and yeah, it's all the stuff that we've been talking about.

00:43:01.572 --> 00:43:12.030
So yeah, edward, thank you so much for coming on the show Always a pleasure, thank you Always love having you on, I love our repartee, I love our banter, our chat.

00:43:12.246 --> 00:43:16.634
We always have a good time and thanks for sharing stuff that's not always talked about.

00:43:16.634 --> 00:43:19.007
In the club space, which is the racket side, and all the numbers.

00:43:19.007 --> 00:43:20.469
In the club space, which is the racket side, and all the numbers.

00:43:20.469 --> 00:43:23.436
Thank you for being so open with all of that Always an honor and a pleasure.

00:43:23.476 --> 00:43:23.777
Thank you.

00:43:24.117 --> 00:43:30.682
Thank you so much, ed, for coming on, sharing some knowledge and light and really allowing us to go deep into the world of rackets and budgeting.

00:43:30.682 --> 00:43:40.195
If you'd like to learn more about management in motion, head on over to privateclubradiocom slash, mim, m-i-m, and all the details are there.

00:43:40.195 --> 00:43:41.547
That's this episode.