502: What Japan Can Teach Us About Hospitality w/ Matthew Gilbert & Joe Smith

Welcome To Private Club Radio

Denny Corby 0:00

Welcome to the Private Club Radio Show, the show where you get the scoop on life inside private golf and country clubs. I'm your host, Danny Corby, and each episode is a real conversation with club leaders, the pros, the people and partners who help clubs thrive. We talk leadership, culture, food and beverage, member experiences, member engagement, marketing, governance, and so much more. If you want practical ideas, better teams in a club experience, members actually feel and talk about. You are in the right place now. Welcome to the show.

0:30

In this episode, we are talking about something a little bit fun because sometimes an episode, an idea, a friendship, a connection just makes sense in your head before the people even know it, before the conversation is even being had. And this is exactly what happened with this one. 'Cause I've known both of these two, two guests, friends of mine here on the, on the channel of the show for a couple of years. And they're both very two cool, amazing, interesting, genuinely cool humans who both happen to be working in the, in the club space, and they're both previous guests here of the channel. We have Joe Smith, GM of Countryside Golf and Country Club in Naples, and we have Matthew Gilbert, who's the executive chef at Medinah Country Club outside of Chicago. Now, they both came back from Japan, and Joe has been fascinated with Japan for m- most of his life. The culture, the history, the art, the cars, the tattoos, the food, all of it. Recently just took his first trip outside of the country with his wife and his daughter, and they made it full of adventure all over in Japan. Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, trains, cars, culture, and just so much fun. And Matthew Gilbert, he has worked and lived in Hong Kong, cooking and learning and chefing it up. And he also just came back from a recent trip. He spent, I think, was it two, two weeks or so over in Japan and just relearning, re-engaging, right? What can he take back and learn and bring back to his club and share with his team? And they both took s- separate trips for comp- completely separate reasons, but they both came home with, you know, a, a deep appreciation for the culture, the people, the hospitality, and the incredible amount of care placed even into just the smallest details. And I thought we just need to have them chat for a conversation here on Private Club Radio. Uh, I do not talk much in this episode at all, which was amazing because they just had such a great conversation just going back and forth and the similarities and the differences, and it was just so good. And of course, you know, we, we, and I say we, but, like, you know, they-- we talked about, they've talked about J- Japan, right? The food, the service, the leadership, and what you as club professionals can take back and use at your club or use in your culture or, you know, what you can learn from another culture. And we, and we definitely talked about all that. But this conversation definitely went a little bit deeper than I expected 'cause we started talking about and got into patience and mastery, the difference between doing something a few times and truly dedicating yourself to a craft. We talked about continuous improvement, anticipating someone's needs before they, before they even have to ask, right? We talk about the energy leaders bring into a room, the beauty of imperfect human hospitality. We, we touch on culture, hiring purpose, member relationships, uh, shared responsibility, and why, you know, some of the smallest moments inside a club may actually be the most important ones Like lit- lit... And, and we talk about everything. Obviously that stuff, but we talk about tattoos, cars, metal music And probably like 12 other things I didn't see coming either. You've been warned, this is a longer episode, but it is a great conversation. Could I have split it into two parts? Probably, yes. Did I? No. Because it's just one of those conversations that Just keeps finding a new direction, a new idea, a new little nugget that makes you stop and think, "I didn't want to interrupt the ride." So settle in, buckle up. You are in for quite a ride with this episode. It's really good.

Management In Motion Invitation

3:58

And speaking of buckling up and going for a ride Have you signed up for Management in Motion yet? You know about Management in Motion, my little club leadership event happening this September, September 21st at the Monticello Motor Club in New York, put on and hosted by me, Denny Corby, and us here at Private Club Radio. We are gonna be taking leadership to the track where we're gonna be, yes, taking adrenaline and ripping up cars safely. Safely, obviously. But we're taking BMWs M2s, 3s, and 4s, drifting, drag racing, high-speed laps, lead follows, go-karts, all that fun stuff, stuff that you shouldn't normally do, uh, on a public street. You can come do it on the Monticello Motor Club's private track in vehicles that aren't yours But what's even cooler is I have the education done by your own peers in between the driving experiences. And it's all about motion, right? What is your motion? What is their motion? What keeps them moving? What gets them moving? And how do they take their motion and bring it back to their clubs, to their teams, to give them both a better professional and personal life? This year we have Alfredo Hildebrandt from Lakewood Country Club out in Ohio, and the one and only Ed Ronan from Bretton Woods, and maybe another little surprise thrown in. We will see. But it's gonna be such a fun time. Almost close to sold out. We have about 20 spots left, limited to 50 people. Keeping it nice, fun, exclusive, keeping the vibes right, keeping it a really good time If you wanna learn more and or to register, head on over to DennyCorby.com And you'll see it right in the top bar And also #shamelessplug. Currently have a couple of fall dates left, but really booking into 2027. You have the Denny Corby experience. There's excitement, there's mystery, also there's magic, mind reading, and comedy. A ton of laughs, gasps, and holy craps. If you wanna learn more, you can head on over to the same place, DennyCorby.com Learn more, see some videos, reach out. Enough about that though. Private Club Radio listeners, I am so excited for this episode.

Reintroducing Joe And Matthew

6:02

Let's welcome back to the show Mr. Joe Smith and Matthew Gilbert

Denny Corby 6:07

much better. 100% better.

Joe Smith 6:09

Yeah.

Denny Corby 6:09

Uh,

Joe Smith 6:10

bacon- So Matthew, I, I grew up in Elk Grove.

Denny Corby 6:13

Oh.

Matt Gilbert 6:13

Yeah.

Joe Smith 6:14

But I went to high school at, uh, in Addison at Driscoll, which isn't there anymore. Um, but are you familiar with, there's a restaurant at the corner of, um, I think it's, um, um... I draw a blank. It's DeMarco's.

Matt Gilbert 6:30

Oh, y- yeah, sure.

Joe Smith 6:32

So my first job in high school was parking cars at DeMarco's.

Matt Gilbert 6:36

No way, man.

Joe Smith 6:37

That was, like, my step into hospitality. I didn't even have... I had a, a learner's permit. I didn't even have a driver's license.

Matt Gilbert 6:43

Right. That's incredible. But- Yeah, no, like Elk Grove is where, when I take a cut cook to the emergency room, that's where we go. Yeah.

Joe Smith 6:52

Alexi

Matt Gilbert 6:52

Brothers- Addison is, is right, you know- was born That's amazing. So- That's very cool. Yeah, cool

Joe Smith 6:57

area.

Matt Gilbert 6:57

Yeah, I'm not, I'm, I'm from far away from here, but living here has been awesome. Uh, you know, moving to the Midwest, I, I was like, "I wonder what that'll be like," but it's been fantastic. Like, I really enjoy being here very much.

Joe Smith 7:08

It's a, it's a good area. It's a good area to raise a family and- Yes I mean, if you can deal with the winters.

Matt Gilbert 7:13

Yeah. And again, like where I come from, the winter here actually seems pretty mild. Um-

Joe Smith 7:18

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 7:19

the, the Rocky Mountain winters and especially where we lived in Idaho, which is like, it would dump like eight, nine feet in the winter, and it doesn't melt at all. So here, it, like, snows a little bit and then melts, you know, and it's- Yeah cold and stuff, and the wind hits you, but no, I, I feel very happy here. The, it's four seasons, you know, which is awesome. And, uh, people are, there's good people everywhere. The, our club is... I, I was gonna joke earlier when you guys, when Denny was talking, it's like you always associate, uh, clubs with refinement or, or very high, you know, level behavior, and most of the time it's not actually, so.

Joe Smith 7:52

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 7:53

Yeah. We,

Joe Smith 7:53

uh, we- That's

Matt Gilbert 7:54

it we have very blue collar millionaire members who are awesome, don't get me wrong, but, uh, some of the things that they do, you're like, "Oh," you know? Okay.

Joe Smith 8:03

Yep.

Matt Gilbert 8:04

Yeah. Well, no, honor to meet you. And, and what were you doing- Yeah, likewise over there? Were, were you just traveling or what was your, what was your trip over there about?

Why Japan Pulled Them In

Joe Smith 8:12

We... Well, I mean, we could just jump right in. Um, it's been number one on my bucket list- Oh since I was, like, six.

Matt Gilbert 8:21

Yeah.

Joe Smith 8:22

Um, I, I don't know why, but I've had this, like, odd, um, obsession and fascination with everything Japan and the culture, the people. Um, so yeah, it was on our list, and, you know, this year, we just came through a huge renovation. Um- Okay we were closed for two and a half years, and it's our first- Mm season back in the club. It was chaos. And I was like, "Screw it." I'm like, "This, this trip, this is, this is the summer we're doing it." So, uh, it was my wife, my daughter, who's 14, and, uh, I'd never been out of the country before- Uh, my wife, my wife's Lebanese, so she's been back to Lebanon. Um, but yeah, it was a huge trip for us. It was awesome. It's amazing. I,

Matt Gilbert 9:07

I bet. That's amazing. Uh-

Joe Smith 9:09

What about you?

Matt Gilbert 9:10

So my, my daughter's also 14, and she just got back two weeks ago from a science and technology trip there with her high school. Um, and so we didn't do that trip together. We took her there when we were, when she was one from Hong Kong, and went in August. It was the horrible time to go, 'cause it's so humid. Yeah. Um, and so this trip obviously for me and for her was very different. But, um, yeah, similar family structure it sounds like, too. Yeah. So when you were six, like what was it about all that? Like, what planted the seed of your interest when you were young?

Joe Smith 9:39

I don't know. I mean, you know, I, I grew up in the '80s and '90s, so like, you know, the, the, we were always into video games and- Yeah um, I don't know. I joke. I'm like, "Maybe there's a past life I was a samurai or something." Right. I don't know. I was just, I've always been fascinated with the culture and the people and the art. Yeah. Um, I love... I'm one of the rare general managers who, uh, when you see me outside of work, Denny knows this, I look very different. I love tattoos.

Matt Gilbert 10:08

Yeah.

Joe Smith 10:09

I love the, you know, the h- history of, of, you know- Like- the Asian tattoos. And, um, I don't know. I, there's like no direct tie to it, but- Oh it's something that's been so consistent. Joe, tell them about your

Denny Corby 10:21

car.

Joe Smith 10:22

Yeah. We, um, last, uh... Let me think back. I think it was l- it was December It was October of '23. I, I bought a Japanese, a JDM car- Okay and imported it. It's a- Wow it's a '99, it's a Honda. And again, just a dream from, of ours. I've always been into cars, always been into tinkering, and I'm like, I wanna restore an old, you know, older... I guess it's not really old, it's '90s, but, you know, by our standards. Um, so we- I went through the whole process. I found one over there, had it imported. Um, we've had it here now, um, actually it was a year in April, so we've been kinda restoring it and sourcing parts and, uh, bringing it to car shows. It's, yeah, cool stuff.

Matt Gilbert 11:16

That's very cool. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm, I'm tatted up, too. Can I ask you a question? And this doesn't have to be part of the- Yeah interview, but are you in, in the least bit interested in, like, metal music?

Joe Smith 11:26

Oh, yeah.

Matt Gilbert 11:27

Okay. 'Cause Japan- Oh, yeah factors in there, too, like the Trivium thing and-

Joe Smith 11:31

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 11:32

there's a lot of it, right? So.

Joe Smith 11:33

Yes.

Matt Gilbert 11:33

Tattoos, cars- Yes Japan. I gotta ask that question.

Joe Smith 11:37

Yes. In fact, I've got a Foo Fighters tattoo. Actually, my daughter and I are coming up in August to see Foo Fighters in Soldier Field.

Matt Gilbert 11:44

Oh, nice.

Joe Smith 11:45

Yes.

Matt Gilbert 11:46

That's awesome.

Joe Smith 11:46

So if you're around, we should try and hook up.

Matt Gilbert 11:49

Please. I would love that. That would be awesome. You, you gotta come to Medina and hang out. That would be amazing.

Joe Smith 11:52

That would be awesome. We'll, we'll- Very cool we'll figure that out.

Matt Gilbert 11:55

Okay. Okay. Right. Well, that's awesome. Let me ask, I'll ask you... So, and I was driving m- my counterparts in Japan, I was driving them a little bit nuts with this, but, um, did you watch the, uh, I think it was Hulu, um, or it was on Disney bundle, the Shogun, the mo- the more recent Shogun? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, I've watched that three times through. Yeah. I'm crying. Yeah. Like, it, it's such a beautiful, beautiful-

Joe Smith 12:19

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 12:20

uh, portrayal of so much of what you've already kinda referred to. Yeah. When I was over there, I, I was connected, and we can talk about this when we start, get going, but I, I, I brought this big list of, of, of words over, Japanese words, that I was hoping to find somebody to help me, you know, elaborate on, um, from the Japanese perspective- Yeah 'cause I, I'm a gringo. Um, and the woman who, who did in the end, Natsuko Kawa-, uh, Ka- Kawasaki, and then my counterpart, Lindsay Gray, was the chef of that club there- Like we talked about, I just kept on bringing it up 'cause so much of what she was saying just like totally tied into that show. And, uh, what, what's beautiful I think about that show is it's made by Japanese people versus- Mm-hmm like the first one. Um, but, but, uh, if you've watched that, you know, probably be some things that we talk about today I, I may re- reference that a little bit.

Joe Smith 13:07

Yeah, no, I- About that thing I actually, I've got the book sitting at home on my, uh, nightstand. I haven't, I haven't delved into it yet 'cause it's such an intense read, but-

Matt Gilbert 13:16

Yeah

Joe Smith 13:16

yeah, no, I watched the s- the show start to finish. I was enthralled with it. I mean, you know, just, uh, the, the history of that country, the culture, I mean, and, and I'm sure we'll get into it. Like, I think what, what brought... You, you were there on a f- on a food club tour, if you will, right? From what I gather.

Denny Corby 13:35

Yes. Well, well- Yes and, and you also, sorry, and Matthew, and you spent time there years ago too, right? Was it- I did was it the, the, the Ritz? What was it?

Matt Gilbert 13:44

Well, so I was in, I lived in Hong Kong and just traveled a lot in Asia during that time. I was with the American Club of Hong Kong. And so my connection this year was with the, it's a different order of words. They call it the Tokyo American Club, but it, they're, they're, uh, connected. You know, those clubs are, are reciprocal. Um, so that was the connection there on both, both times.

Denny Corby 14:03

Yeah, sorry. And then Joe, you were saying?

Joe Smith 14:06

Um, I forgot what I was saying. I mean, ours, I was just like, we, we were literally, we didn't plan anything out. We, like, bought our tickets, we knew where we were staying. You know, we did kind of the first-timer, you know, Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, and then, um, aside from that, I didn't book any tours. Um, I know we wanted to see... I love the car culture there, so we wanted to see a lot of the car culture stuff, but it was literally, I wanted it to be an adventure for us, so we really didn't plan anything. Um, and we just, literally every day, we woke up, we sat in the lobby, we had some coffee, and we're like, "What are we gonna do? What are we gonna go explore?"

Matt Gilbert 14:49

Nice.

Joe Smith 14:50

Um, and it, you know, being my first time out of the country, I felt like I've always, I've always been, you know, sheltered, if you will. Um, giving that experience to our daughter at that age, you know, she was like, to see her just be totally independent. She was the one who was planning out the trains and the public transportation and,

Orderly Chaos And Extreme Detail

Joe Smith 15:10

you know. But I went, um, y- you know, not to get, like, philosophical, but, like, my biggest takeaway, that country, um, it's like the ultimate- picture of what life is, you know? Like, it is, it is a country of polar opposites. You know, you have 37 million people in Tokyo, and literally all you hear walking through downtown Tokyo is the sound of the car tires on the road. I didn't hear a horn honk. You know, and I, and I go with, you know, my, my thing is, like, I, I try and wear a hospitality, hospitality glasses everywhere I go. And we have a saying at the club, "How we do small things is how we do all things." That's, like, our mantra here. And the detail, like, again, it is like orderly chaos over there. So you have both ends of the spectrum of life, what, you know, what is required to create life, right? You can't have good times and appreciate good times without the hard times, right? And then what you see in Japan, like, you just experience this, like, culture of opposites. It's busy, yet it's orderly. You know, it's bright and chaotic, yet it's quiet at the same time. Yeah. Um, you know, and the, the details of stuff and the, you know, the manhole covers. They all have... I don't even know if I mentioned this to you, Denny. Like, all... I took pictures of all the manhole covers because they're all, they all have some sort of intricate design on them. You know, you-

Denny Corby 16:45

Aren't there people who- You get into a... Go ahead. So are, are, aren't there people who go over there, and maybe I could be m- mistaken it, but they'll, they'll take, like, tin foil or something and put it over the manhole cover, and then they'll, like, you know, ru- rub down on it to get an impression. Then they'll use that to make, you know, not like a sticker, but they'll use that to make a stamp or some other art sort of stuff. Um, I could be wrong.

Joe Smith 17:12

I haven't heard that, but you could certainly do it. I mean- Yeah And the cleanliness. The, I mean, everything is so spotless, and you get into a taxi cab and the cab drivers are wearing white gloves. I mean, this is just a- Yeah cab driver. You know what I mean?

Matt Gilbert 17:27

They're the most polite people in the world, by the way.

Joe Smith 17:30

Oh, it... I, I don't know. There's, there's just so many takeaways, and I'm sure you, you, you have the same. I just came back- Yeah and I, my first response to everybody who asks me is they're 100 years ahead of us in everything- Hmm they do. Hmm. And you look at the history of the country and what they've overcome in terms- Yeah of turmoil and destruction and, you know, yet they continue to move forward. Again, you know, I, I, I kept drawing these similarities or these parallels to, like, you know, just life lessons, right? You know, like working through the tough times, continuing to push forward. Like, you need to have... You've gotta have the, the chaos and the turmoil to appreciate the, the, the peace and the silence, and you have all of it there.

Matt Gilbert 18:16

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's impossible- And the people from what you, what you said about philosophical, it's impossible not to get philosophical, I think, when talking about Japan. I... All of what I have here, there's that el- There's the, for sure, probably annoyingly so, an element of philosophy involved in it, and depth to it. Um- Yeah and then Denny, are... You're, you're the boss. Are we going now? Or, or are you gonna introduce it or?

Denny Corby 18:39

Oh, it's, it was... Uh, I use... I'll, I'll introduce it in the, in the beginning and then I'll chop it up- Okay and it'll just start. Um, no, but I wa- I was gonna, kinda gonna say to, to, to Joe's point, since you'd done more of the back of house in, in that part of the world- D- do you, do you see the, is it the same on the back end side as it is, like, so is it, like, the same front-facing as it is backward-facing too, uh, when it comes to- Oh.

Joe Smith 19:09

Oh, yeah

Denny Corby 19:10

cause I, I still go back to when we did our episode of, like, how just the presentation of everything, and if, if it's, if people aren't taking photos, d- doesn't matter how delicious the food was, if they weren't, like, taking photos and, you know, getting excited about that, then it's not that it was, like, a failure, but you're kind of just like, "Oh, that could've

Matt Gilbert 19:28

been better."

Denny Corby 19:28

Mm-hmm.

Patience And Mastery Over Speed

Denny Corby 19:29

Like how, just like those, like- Yes little things.

Matt Gilbert 19:31

Yeah. Yeah, Joe, that one was a phrase in Hong Kong, um, which means the camera eats first. And so for a chef and, and anyone portraying anything there, e- even if the food was the best-tasting food of the world- Mm-hmm it doesn't, if it, if it isn't something that evokes you wanting to take a picture of it, um, then there is an element of, like, maybe that could've been better, you know? Or not, not f- all-out failure, but definitely, like, a, a big part of it is the presentation. And I think Japan, there's elements of similarity there, but actually, uh, what I really admire, and, and you've already talked about it with the little details and how you do a small thing is how you do a big thing, there, the, the folks there and the approach to, to everything is very detail-oriented and also patient. So I, I made a list of things that I kind of, like qualities that I would, I would start this, um, with from my point of view about, um, just things that I perceive. So, like, humble culture, respect-oriented culture, um, patience. Like there's an element- Mm-hmm of patience there. And, and pro- not pejoratively, but definitely a lot of, I think, what we're gonna talk to- about today is, like, contrasted against our culture, uh, which is an amazing place. America's awesome, of course, but, like, our culture is one of, of bombast. Our culture is one, in certain senses, of shallowness. Um, there's an incredible- Arrogance y- exactly. You know- Yeah there's an incredible depth there which results in- Their ability to master things in, in a way I think we used to. You know, uh, uh, X amount of years ago, decades ago maybe we had, in Europe definitely with the artisanship there. There was, there was an approach to mastery that just i- accepted the fact that reps were really important, like doing things over and over and over to achieve mastery. And so that's patience, that's perseverance, diligence, that's all these values that result in people being like really, really good at stuff. And, uh, for us here in the kitchen, a lot of times we face folks who watch a couple of YouTube videos and in their mind they're a master of that now.

Joe Smith 21:31

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 21:31

Right? Versus having to do something 3,000 times before your master or your teacher allows you to move to the next step. Like, we just don't have the attention span or patience here. Um, so I love that about the Japanese, um, culture. But certainly in the kitchen, what I observed in the, in that club, which is 4,000-plus members and 10,000 people in their dining community, was first of all, it was a much more international kitchen than I thought it would be. But the, the Japanese element in there, which was primarily in banquets, these guys are just like... You know, I'm teaching them how to make cherry, cherry barbecue sauce, which was hilarious by the way. But what they're capable of, their level of mastery, any of those guys in that kitchen, for me I, I, I just, I bow to them, you know? And, and that's the respect aspect of everything that they do. But I just, you can see it immediately in their demeanor, the confidence that they have, but not cocky. Um, and that's born of like literally decades of doing stuff.

Joe Smith 22:27

Well, I think it's just, it, there's this... As soon as, soon as we got on the plane to go, we flew ANA over.

Matt Gilbert 22:34

Yeah.

Joe Smith 22:35

There's just this overwhelming sense of pride-

Matt Gilbert 22:38

Yeah

Joe Smith 22:39

uh, fro- from the Japanese people. Like, you just, it's like, like you said, it's like in their DNA, you know? There's just this, uh, sense of pride. And the one thing I kept saying... And like you said, you said earlier, you know, "I love this country. It's a great country." When I, you know, coming back and I preface, I pre- have prefaced all my conversations, I'm like, "Look, I love America. I love being an American." "I love this country."

Matt Gilbert 23:05

You need

Joe Smith 23:06

to say that. But we, coming back, we are, it opens your eyes. Like, we're very arrogant, we're very ignorant, we lack patience, we don't know what discipline is, um, to the extent that they do. And when I, you know, when I say like they're so far ahead of us in everything, punctuality, respect, discipline, patience, um, just pride. You're just like- Holy cow, you know? Yes. And it, it is ingrained everywhere there. Yeah. Everywhere.

Matt Gilbert 23:36

Yeah. Yeah, I, I went over there, so, you know, having spent a lot of my life in different countries, um, y- it's like when you come back to the States, you have to package those messages in a, in a specific way, and you definitely can overdo it. But what I, what I found every place that I have been is that there's a lot to learn from every culture, you know? And, and we- Yeah have an amazing culture. We, we know a lot here, and we're good at a lot of things here, but that doesn't mean that we can't l- I learned so much in Egypt, you know. I, I, I really am very respectful of the, the Middle Eastern cultures and what they've achieved there. Um, Europe is fantastic. Latin America, um, living in, in China, Hong Kong, obviously that was, like, a really just mind-blowing- Yeah um, especially being there for six years and, and being in the mix. And so I feel as though you collect these things. I went there with these words, like I mentioned, and I, I have five of them today that I wouldn't mind talking about if, if we can, and I think that you will have a, a lot to say, too. You've already kinda like teed that up. But I went over there with these words that I've done my own independent gringo, um, gaijin research on, um, knowing that what I saw and what I learned was, was very geared towards what I thought it would be, and I wanted to know is, is this stuff real? Um, I think, Denny, you kinda framed this as things that we thought we could benefit our clubs with, and these are things that already I have, um, with my own leadership team. There's like 24 people on my leadership team, so it's a big group. Um,

Kaizen And Daily Improvement

Matt Gilbert 24:58

and the one that I'll start with, and, and, and was the most interested in introducing to my team, is the concept of Kaizen, and I know that, that that's kinda what you just said is, like, there's a dedication every day- Mm-hmm to a, a, a gradual and constant improvement. And so what I love about, again, in the bombast culture of America, maybe if we don't throw a 99-yard touchdown pass, or if we don't hit a grand slam, or, you know, sports analogy, blah, blah, blah, if we don't have some kind of insane gain in a day, then it's kind of a failure, or, like, it wasn't really much of a day. Whereas these folks are, are investing, and it's a mindset. So the Kaizen thing with my team, there's personal Kaizen, professional Kaizen. There's different levels of it. But here at work what I've asked them, and, and they pledged to this, my team, which I love, is that every day when we come in, we don't have to gain 30% or 50%, but we do need to take a step forward at least, uh, every day.

Joe Smith 25:57

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 25:58

And so when we come to work- A hun- you know, one step a day times 100 days is 100 steps, right? That, the, the Japanese understand that incrementally those are very meaningful steps that add up to something very big. The other thing that I love about that concept here is that we feel as though if we don't, like that sense of failure, if we don't have a giant gain, this is almost permission to, to not half-ass it at all. Like, it, but to move forward at a, at a, at a pace that's comfortable, and that's actually helped our team move forward faster. It's almost, like, counterintuitive, right? We've moved forward faster embracing the fact that some days we don't move forward as much as we wish, but we always are moving forward. So that Kaizen mentality, I know that's helped me a lot over the decades- Mm-hmm but the team is growing super fast, um, as a result of that slow approach.

Joe Smith 26:50

Yeah, it's consistency Right? It, it's, it's, it's, it's minute consistent forward action. Like, that, that's it. And you see that everywhere there.

Matt Gilbert 27:03

Yes. Yeah.

Kintsugi And Wabi Sabi Mindset

Joe Smith 27:06

The other, one of... I, just maybe it's on your list, but the, the word that I came back with is, um, uh, is it, uh, kintsugi?

Matt Gilbert 27:15

The- Oh, kintsugi, absolutely

Joe Smith 27:16

where they... So that's, that's, Denny, that's the art of repairing broken pottery with gold.

Matt Gilbert 27:22

Yep.

Joe Smith 27:23

So it's, it's seeing the beauty in, in brokenness. You know? And it's not, um, disposing, uh, or just throwing something out because it's broken. There's still use. Like, the, like, the, there's, there's benefit in the cracks, right? Um, and again, something that I've shared with my team here as well is, like, to your point, we're not gonna be 100% every single day. Like, there's as much to learn in the failures or the rough nights, especially, you know, for us this past season, we had some rough nights.

Matt Gilbert 27:56

Mm-hmm.

Joe Smith 27:57

Right? First, first year back in the club, um, after operating in a trailer for two years, you know, we went from zero to 100. The rough nights are not failures. You know? The, the, the difficult experiences are not failures. There's, there's learning experiences in those, you know? And, and same, same concept. Like, you know, the beauty in that pottery that's been repaired with, you know, gold filler is, is that, is, is the repair.

Matt Gilbert 28:26

Yes. No, absolutely. Um, I, and I love that very much. Kintsugi is one that I, I've been into for a long time, and you see those beautiful images of, of pottery with the golden, um, glue that, that puts them back together. Um, just this last week, the, the video that I posted with Tatsuko, uh, Kawasaki, the woman that I mentioned, it was the first interview with her. It was about 10 minutes, and that was about the concept of wabi-sabi, what we would call wabi-sabi. Mm-hmm. They pronounce it a little differently. Um, but an element of the wabi-sabi piece with her was kintsugi, and so what I was highlighting in, with that was the beauty of human inter- imperfection, right? So if we're in an era where things are being more and more mechanized and/or digitized to the point of producing some perfect thing, and that just continues to grow and develop and get better, over time my philosophy is that humans who consume those things will eventually want something that's imperfect because it reflects that it was actually created by a human, right? And so I love the, the concepts of kintsugi and wabi-sabi because they're, they're so up our alley as creative people, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so wabi do, um, what, that, if you wanna watch the, the, the better version of this is from her, but wabi do is, like, to be sorry for, and then sabi do is, um, having the element of, of age or breakdown, and it's typified in an image as rust. So that's the beauty, the beauty that can be found in something that is aged, that is, that is falling apart, that is in deterioration. And, um, you know, from a chef and, and also a musician standpoint, that's exactly like the things in life for me that are the most beautiful are the ones that are flawed because it reflects the individual who created it, you know? Yeah. So I, I love that you brought that up. Yeah, kintsugi is, is a And that's one that's probably known a little bit more in our culture, which is good, but boy is that a, that's a super deep concept- that's beautiful to be able to embrace with people.

Hospitality As A Human Business

Joe Smith 30:22

Well, and even, you know, to bring it back to our industry, one of the things we talk about here at the club, you know, um, I think, I think what's so, what's b- always been so appealing for me about the hospitality industry in general, um, is that it is just such a human business.

Matt Gilbert 30:39

Yes.

Joe Smith 30:39

You know? So when... And I'll often use this with members, you know, when they have a poor experience at the club, and I'll say, "You know, listen, I, I appreciate that, but you have to understand, like, this is w- this is a human business. You know, before your plate gets to your table, you have no idea how many hands touch that, you know, in, in the preparation of it. And humans, to your point, we're imperfect." Yeah. You know? And, you know, the beauty in that is that even, you know, even though you're g- gonna have situations that aren't perfect, the more times that you do have great dinner services or provide incredible member experiences or, um, e- even the more intimate events that just go off without, without... You, you think about the effort and the alignment that it all takes for it to come off perfect, and really- Yeah in our business, you have more perfect evenings, more perfect experiences for members than, than the, than the other, right? Than, than poor experiences. Yeah. You know? And you, you think about what it takes with all the humans are, that are involved in delivering that experience to the member, and how imperfect all of us are in our own tendencies, and you take a step back and you're like, "Holy cow." Yeah. "What we do is magic." Like there's an alignment there that happens that you're just like, you really step back and appreciate it. You're like, "Wow."

Matt Gilbert 32:12

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and as an G- a, you know, you're, you're a GM, so talking to a GM who oversees the whole experience at a club, my philosophy about our membership and why people wanna be in a, in a expensive member club is actually a humanity experience all the way through, right? We, we join this to be part of a human community, to be served by other human beings. Um, and I feel like one of those words that we talk about in the modern era that, that's interesting is authenticity. And so authenticity is a reflection of, to a certain degree, vulnerability of a person in front of others, um, the, the truth of who they are. And so obviously we have to filter that in this environment. Like, we need to always be professional and stuff like that. But that said, my experience is that members really want it. They wanna interact with humans, man. They wanna interact with other people who are interesting, and that interestingness, um, definitely includes that imperfection too, right? Mm-hmm. Our, our personalities, each of us are perfect in our own self, um, from like a Buddhist standpoint, but the beauty of us are our flaws and the individual, you know, the, the individual nature of us that others perceive include those things. Yeah. And so I en- I encourage our servers- Always remain professional. There's, there's a line that we can't cross in terms of being informal, uh, to a certain degree. But that said, there's a large window of opportunity to show who you are, and the members really want that. Yeah. They don't want drones. They don't want droids to be serving them, right? That might be more efficient, but I think they prefer the, the, the slightly less efficient, more interesting human version almost every time. Yeah. Uh, so that's what we work to deliver is... Uh, what I tell these guys is we're not just, like, clearing tables and, and filling waters and, and, and cooking scallops or chicken nuggets or whatever it is. We're providing humanity experiences that satiate a deep human need. Um, we're not just, you know, little cogs in this wheel. We're not rocket surgeons. We're not, um... You know, we- that's the, that's the, the joining of a rocket scientist and, and heart surgeon, right? So we're not, like, saving lives on that level or putting people on another planet, but we do provide a deeply important human service, I believe, in this realm- Mm-hmm that people, regardless of their wealth level, are looking for somewhat desperately. And when they join a club, it's, that's an indicator of wanting that. So we have an awesome opportunity to provide that if we, if we realize that that's what's actually going on.

Joe Smith 34:37

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, the, I think the most basic human need is, like, we all wanna feel cared for.

Matt Gilbert 34:43

Yeah.

Joe Smith 34:43

We wanna feel special, we wanna feel appreciated, and we wanna feel that others are interested, interested in us as well. So-

Matt Gilbert 34:50

Yes

Joe Smith 34:50

you know, very similar to you, like, here, you know, we encourage that authenticity. I want, I want my staff to show interest in the members.

Matt Gilbert 34:59

Yes.

Joe Smith 35:00

And the members in turn show interest in our team members. One of the things that is, is, uh, we, we talk about often, I've talked to Robert about this multitude of times, um, especially when he made the transition over to, uh, Carlton River Club, because it's an HOA, so he's got a real estate. Yeah. And I said... He, he called me when he took that job and he says, "What should I, what should I be aware of?" And I said, "You gotta think of the club as an extension of your members' living room."

Denny Corby 35:30

Hmm.

Joe Smith 35:31

So we, uh, most of our clubs down here in South Florida have the real estate aspect. So I've got 1,100 homes that are, that are bundled with the club where it's a gated community, and I have members who just walk down to the club. You know, they're not getting in their car and driving 30 minutes or 45 minutes. It's not a destination for them. It's literally like an extension of their home. So you have a little bit more relaxed environment. Um, but it, I think it also breeds this opportunity to really just make them feel special, you know? And- Yes you become this family. Um, and that's one of the things I felt- You know, experiencing the Japanese culture from, you know, a- as a tourist, um, I just, I felt like the whole country had this concept of hospitality Just I literally, I truly felt like there was an interest in us. I mean, from the, from the moment we stepped foot on that plane. Yeah. You know? The, the, the stewardess that was taking care of us on, on the plane was so kind and went out of her way to, you know, uh, she... They put a little care package together for us. So it's first time in the country, and she wrote us this handwritten note, um, and gave us some, you know, "Make sure you carry, um, an extra plastic bag for your garbage to keep in your, in, you know, in your backpack." And- Yeah "You know, it's rainy season, so, um, you know, pick up a, a, an umbrella at the airport, you know, before you..." I- it's just like they just went out of our way to anticipate the needs that we would have. Yeah. And that didn't stop through the whole, through our whole time there.

Matt Gilbert 37:18

No.

Joe Smith 37:18

You know? So, so, so- And in our business that's what we do. We're here to anticipate needs, right?

Matt Gilbert 37:22

Absolutely. And that, that's my favorite

Kikubari And Anticipatory Service

Matt Gilbert 37:24

word. Like, you've completely tip, uh, t- teed up my favorite word, which is kikubari. This is the word, uh, ki is life energy, and kubari- Kubari means to hand out. Like, imagine that as a combination of words. Like, this is one of the things I love too for us as, as English speakers, learning things from other cultures is a lot of times words in other, in other languages, the way that they're translated into English, it's a combination of words we would never naturally think of, and it, like, tees our mind up in a m- much different way. So when I heard that, the ha- think about this, the handing out of energy. We as leaders, we do that all day. Mm-hmm. What kind of energy are we handing out, right? So there's a self-awareness that needs to be happening there big time, um, to, to first of all realize that you're doing it. Regardless of whether you think you're not, your people are all taking energy from you, right? You're handing that out. Um, and then to do so in a way that is intended for the benefit of those receiving it, right? So kikubari we would probably translate into anticipatory service, um, in a professional sense. But to your point, this is, this is permeated throughout their culture. This is the w- the reason that people don't talk on the subway, the reason that people don't wa- uh, eat while they're walking around. Like, there's all these things that are socially conscious of the wellbeing of other people, and the desire to not impinge my personal situation on others, right? And so kikubari is one, again, I introduced it to our, the team here. Everyone's like, "Okay, dude, what the hell?" But it's funny because at the same time we're talking about, everybody's talking about, um, unreasonable hospitality, right? Mm-hmm. Which is such an incredible book, such an incredible read. I think dozens, hundreds of, of club teams and restaurant teams have read that and tried to impart elements of that in what they do. But if you think about what that is, you know, those guys were trying so hard- To figure out things about the people that were gonna come dine there so that they could deliver what you said. Like, uh, surprising experiences that no one would see coming that come from the heart. Like, so we're, we're thinking of how we can make you feel this specific way. Like, it's gonna rain. Y- here's an umbrella. Like, all those are anticipatory things. If it's hot outside, if you're in Japan, you come in, they're gonna give you cold tea.

Joe Smith 39:37

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 39:38

If it's cold outside and you come inside, they're gonna give you hot tea or oshibori or whatever that is, right? 'Cause they're anticipating your needs, not theirs, yours. And so when we frame it in the- in the unreasonable hospitality dimension, it's like such a beautiful thing. And if you don't mind, I would love to just read a couple of, of the notes that I wrote for this. So- Yeah,

Joe Smith 39:55

please

Matt Gilbert 39:56

um, again, kikubari, uh, so this is a word of paying appreciative attention, uh, to the people around you without expecting anything in return. Kikubari, uh, brings a subtle smile to the hearts of both giver and receiver. It is a thoughtful gesture of giving and sharing the energy of love and kindness, focusing on the other person's emotions and physical or emotion state with an emphasis on caring for them. So in the club environment, like, we have such an incredible advantage. Like, if Will Guidara and his team had return guests all the time, then they would know everything about them, and they would know a thousand ways, because they're creative, to make those members feel things. We have that so set up for us here- Mm-hmm as long as we have that mindset, right? And so can we overcome in this culture? Can we overcome ourself? I think this is one of the hardest things. So it's like when you come to work and you have all these struggles, and in my other interviews, especially with Filipinos, I'll... I'm asking them that question. Like, Filipinos provide such incredible service. There's such a hospitality culture, but so many of them live in what we would see as grindingly poor conditions with lots of challenges in their own personal lives. So how do you come to work and somehow put that aside for the wellbeing of the other? To me, as an American, that's fascinating. Mm-hmm. And I wanna learn about that and teach it, because if we can do that in our clubs, that's other level. That's the kinda thing that people would spend any amount of money to experience on a regular basis. So kikubari, when I, when I came upon that as a, as a gaijin, as a, as a gringo, that one was like, "Oh my God, here it is." Like, this is what our team... If we can wrap our minds around this concept and then get o- over ourselves so that when we come in, our intent is all on the other, um, we can deliver something that you said earlier- Yeah magical, right?

Joe Smith 41:46

Well, we're, you know... I wrote, I wrote that word down because that, that might be the most impactful thing for me that came out of this today that I'm gonna take forward. But, you know, um- W- w- you are responsible for the energy you bring into the room.

Matt Gilbert 42:02

Yeah.

Joe Smith 42:03

Right? And, you know, that's something that I always try and remind myself of, especially as a leader. You know, I set the tone, right? You set the tone for your team. You know, in one sense, the higher you are up the hierarchy, you are less important because look, if I'm not here for... If I lose my job tomorrow, life at the club goes on, right? Yeah. But if we have three or four disgruntled bartenders who are upset with the culture or whatever, and they walk, that directly affects the members, right? Yeah. Like, the members will experience that. They won't miss me. They'll miss, they'll miss the frontline team, but where we come in a- as leaders is, again, setting that tone for the energy.

Matt Gilbert 42:53

Yes.

Joe Smith 42:54

You know, we... And, and that, and it goes all the way down the line. Each individual person on the team, regardless of what's going on outside of the, outside of the club, is responsible for the energy they bring in that day.

Matt Gilbert 43:05

Yeah. Yeah, it's s- it's such a self-awareness, um, wake up. Uh, I, I remember when it dawned on me, and a lot of leaders don't realize what I'm about to say. So I feel like this is something if I could give anybody advice, it's to realize inside of yourself what you just said. So whether you think so or not, as a leader, everybody's watching you. Mm. And they're watching you for cues about all kinds of things. Behavior, like so how you get along with other people, green lights or red lights, certain behaviors for them to do with their peers. Um, but most importantly on the energy level, like you look at yourself in the mirror, I'm sure the three of us are the same. When you look in the mirror and I'm like, "Oh, there's goofy ass Matt," you know? Like, I'm just me, man. Like in my mind I'm, I'm silly, nerdy, chefy, musicy guy Matt. Um, you're a GM, everyone looks up to you. And so you're you. In your eyes you're just little you, but in their eyes you're something big, right? And every cue that you give can s- can set off the day or even days or weeks of reaction in their mind. "Did I do something wrong?" W- and then it's like they get in their own heads about, you know, "Chef looked at me this way. I must have messed up." And that's just like RBF or like that's- Mm me thinking. Like sometimes when I'm thinking I'm just serious, right? And they're like, "Oh, chef was mad today." And I was like, "No, I was trying to think of, you know, the solution to some little problem." But they were all seeing that. And so, so the, you know, when y- we talk about getting over our, our own self, it starts with us, man. Like we all have the same problems and stuff in life that everybody else that works in the club does. But when we come to work it's incumbent upon us to be able to put that aside and recognize the importance of inter- each interaction. And I'm sure you're like me, I r- I greet everybody every day. I walk up to them and fist bump them. Some people like a handshake, some people like a fist bump. But regardless, there's that interaction and that's my, that's my, my chance in a very short period of time to hand out the right kind of energy, the positive energy that sends that person forward on the rest of their day and all the challenges they're facing going, "Okay, things are good." Right? It's that subtle messaging of like, we're doing, I'm doing good. I'm recognized. M- I was seen today. Um, this is hard for me, but I'm okay. I got the strength, right? We have the opportunity to impart that. And, and a lot of even on my team, like I'll have that conversation sometimes where I'm like, "I don't think you realize how you're coming off to people." And, and when they have that aha moment and realize, "Oh my God, part of the weight of the crown of being in charge is having to carry yourself a certain way." Mm. Yes, this is true. We are responsible. I love that you put it that way. America is a big s- personal responsibility place, and I love that, right? We do have the personal responsibility as leaders to emanate the right kind of information if we really believe in our culture and what we're trying to create. That starts with us.

Joe Smith 45:59

Mm-hmm. So, so being in, in the club over there, w- w- what was... I, I'm interested in what, like, the leadership atmosphere in the, in the, you know, the club dynamic- Yeah what it was like over there versus, you know, what we typically see here.

Matt Gilbert 46:18

Sure. Um, you know, every- everywhere I've been, it's, it's been different. But one of the things that I also... And I- and I'm, uh... You know, so our Dave, our GM, Dave Snyder, he hates when I, I, I talk nice about him. Like, so if he sees this, he'll be pissed off at me. But he's such a won- Robert's awesome, and Robert's an EQ guy. Our, our GM, on an energy level, is just... He, he's so special, right? Um, and, and one of the things that he always says, until he came, I was, like, the guy who said, "I'm the most annoyingly optimistic person here." And when he got here, he's probably a little more annoyingly optimistic- than me. But, like, the, the two of us and our energy compounding throughout, um... So I'm the food and beverage director here too. So the whole F&B team is subjected to annoying-ass positive me. And then the whole club is subjected to him, right? So I say that just to say that my experience as an optimist... with the, the, the energy, um, the positivity for me traveling around the world a- and coming from a, a place where we focused a lot growing up on the differences between people, this is Montana, you know, we, we found a lot of reason to see the differences.

Joe Smith 47:26

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 47:26

Um, the other, you know, it was like a pretty, like, pretty one culture thing going on there, and so the other was, was scary or different. And so getting out into the world, one of the things that I was just brilliantly bowled over by was how much commonality there is, you know? Like, the, if you're, if it's all your mindset, if you're looking for differences, you're gonna find a lot of them. If you're looking for commonality and, and, and things to connect on, you're also gonna find so much. So I would answer your question, um, yes, there are things that are different in all these places, but what's been beautiful about spending time, uh, like in Egypt for example, I was, I was, quite frankly, I was scared to go there. When I was moving there, I'm like, "Oh my God, am I making some kind of decision that will result in me, like, dying or something?" You know? Like, I had no understanding of what the Middle East was really like, 'cause most of what I watched was on TV and seemed scary.

Joe Smith 48:18

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 48:19

And what I got there in experience was an incredibly positive, beautiful hospitality culture. You know what I mean? Like, just the, the kindest human beings, man, um, invite you into their house, humble, sit down on the floor and eat bread. You know, just o- on the floor And it was so beautiful. So all throughout my experiences, I've noticed differences, um, for sure. But what I more, what I noticed was how many things we all have in common. And especially when, when, like Joe was talking about this is a human experience or it's a humanity experience, when we focus on our realm, then it's almost all commonality. Like, everybody loves to laugh, you know? That's why Denny is a beautiful, a beautiful part of this world, is that he has the ability to make people laugh, and that brings joy into their lives. Every culture I've ever been in, people just wanna laugh and smile, right? They wanna eat something that tastes good. They wanna, they wanna drink something that tastes good, whether that's alcoholic or not. Um, and so across all these experiences, to ans- you know, to your question, there are a lot of things that are the same. I think one of the things that we- Could learn from in America is the we, the we- Mm-hmm point of view. So there's a lot of Latinos in our kitchen. Um, again, I moved, I live, I, I married into a Latin family. Um, and everything in the Latin world is we. We're thinking about us as a group. Um, as opposed to in America, one of the beautiful things about our country is that we're independent, we're individuals. Um, but if we take that too far- Mm-hmm we become very egocentric, and it's me versus you all. Um, I'm better than you are, or I'm worse than you. You know, it's like this relation of me and you instead of us. And so what I think I would say, like the Middle Eastern cultures are us cultures. Uh, Philippines culture is very much an us culture, right? Um, so when we're able to out in the world lead a group of people who are already thinking like that, whoa, that's a lot easier than it is to get a group of people who are like the center of, you know, I think most Americans kind of think there's like a camera somewhere videoing their life, like they're the, they're the, the, the main character of a TV show or something like that. And so, and that's, you know, you hear the young, young... My kids are talking about, you know, NPCs, non, non-player characters. It's like all these- freaking NPCs that are, like, in my way, and I'm the star of this, this show. So it's, it's- Mm-hmm about me, not you. Get out of my way, right? So when you're leading a group, if, and we have 230 people on the team, and not everyone's like that. Of course, we're talent selecting to try to find people who ha- naturally have the servant

Joe Smith 50:52

heart, naturally-

Matt Gilbert 50:53

Yeah have the desire to work as a group and stuff. But that said, there's a challenge here. And in a place like Japan,

Joe Smith 51:01

um, in a place like, like Cairo,

Matt Gilbert 51:04

uh, Hong Kong was that way. You know, the places I've worked in the Latin world, it's been very easy to lean into the group thinking like, "Guys, we need to do this 'cause it's good for everybody." And if you say that, and everyone's like, "Yes," then they're gonna do that. You know, they're naturally so- solving a whole bunch of problems for you, um, that, that if they're not doing that, you're like, "Okay, let's sit down with Billy again and tell him why it's not good to F you everybody."

Joe Smith 51:30

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 51:30

Um, or, or whatever. You know what I'm saying? So I think that's probably the commonalities are many. Um, but one of the things that I, I'm inspired by is when we can get a group of people who are all like they're in it for a we, and the we is our team, but the we is also our membership, um, then that makes it just so much better and so much easier to do this, you know?

Joe Smith 51:56

Do you, do you think some of that has to do with, um- Like, i- in general, just c- 'cause I've been reflecting on that quite a bit, like the amount of time we spend here in this country focusing on the differences among ourselves.

Matt Gilbert 52:16

Yeah.

Joe Smith 52:16

You know, your, your reality is what you focus your, your energy on.

Leader Energy And Being Watched

Matt Gilbert 52:22

Yep.

Joe Smith 52:22

So as you said, to your point, if you're always looking at what, w- all, all the differences, that's what you're gonna find. Mm-hmm. If you're looking for the commonalities, that's what you will find. But do you think the general atmosphere of- that is because that we are such, we're a country that is such a melting pot of different, you know, nationalities and, and, uh, just different backgrounds of people versus... Because that was very evident to me. Again, first time out of the country, you know, and coming back, I mean, I, I stood out like a sore thumb there.

Matt Gilbert 52:59

Yes.

Joe Smith 53:00

But, but just the, the respect for shared spaces and all the different neighborhoods and, you know, um, cities that we went to, the, the practices and the culture and, you know, like, I- you could walk down any back street, whether it was in Tokyo or a neighborhood of Tokyo or Kyoto, and I can guarantee you you would see an older person sweeping. Yeah. You know? Or someone... It, it's just like- Th- there was so, the, the, the, the focus on commonality and, and respect for shared spaces was so evident-

Matt Gilbert 53:41

Yeah

Joe Smith 53:41

that it almost, you know, you come back to the States and you're like, "W- wow, like, we're really missing that," you know? And to me, that's something that I, that I'm really, I really wanna bring back to my, my atmosphere and my culture here at the club, is that, you know, we all own a s- a, a piece of, we all own a piece of the member experience. We all own a piece of the employee experience, and we all own a piece of how the club looks, and how our grounds look, and how we treat each other, and the energy we bring in. Do, do you think that that is just because it's such a melting pot here versus some of th- you know, th- these other countries?

Matt Gilbert 54:23

Yes, to a degree. I also think that just so much of our national identity, and boy, I don't want to get myself in trouble-

Joe Smith 54:31

I

Matt Gilbert 54:31

don't want... I'm, I'm libertarian as well. Um, but a big, a big part of our, our, our national identity is built on the concept of, of individualism, right? Yeah. Like our headwest- Which

Joe Smith 54:40

is great.

Matt Gilbert 54:41

It is. It is. Which is a great thing. It's awesome. It's like it can be, you know, that's the cool thing is like the polarity can have, uh, relevance in both directions for sure. Um, and I think that, you know, I, I love that aspect of our culture actually. That's a really- Same big part of who I am. Um, but definitely also to your point, you know, like so, so the que- yeah, the question is how do we get in a, in a pluralistic society like this, you know, if we're willing, first of all, to work with a rainbow coalition of different folks, um, that's gotta be the starting point, obviously. You know, how do we go about that? I feel like that's our challenge as, as leaders on a higher level, and I, I feel like so much in this generation, it used to be our dads' generations were like the boss told you what to do and you did it, because you didn't wanna lose your mortgage and your house, you know, your health insurance- Mm-hmm and all the things that came with having a job. And so you just saluted, right? And that's why the servant leadership thing I think rel- uh, really resonates these days with the generation that is coming in, uh, which by the way, I embrace. I know a lot of old dogs, especially chefs, are like, "These young people suck." Uh, for me, it's like it's just different, you know? It, and it's awesome. You, you just need to adapt to it and approach it a certain way, but I guess what I'm getting at is there needs to really be, and this is such a bumper sticker word, but like buy-in from everybody. And so we try to be very inclusive, um, in the kitchens in, in getting people's flavors on the menu, for example. Like we have people- Mm-hmm from 15 different countries, right? Like if, if I as a chef was not taking advantage of that for the benefit of our members, then I'm an idiot, right? Like we got- Mm-hmm so many cool flavors happening that I could say, "You all need to make some hamburgers," you know, and they would do it. But if I've got an, a Colombian guy here, then why are we not serving arepas? Like- Yeah we, we need to do that. So when you, when you're able to get more and more people, even like young people, the youngest people, to have, to voice their ideas and then hear those and implement them, a lot of times their ideas are gonna dovetail with things that we want to do anyway. But frame that in a way where it's like the 19-year-old busser had this awesome idea, and we're gonna do that now as a group. If enough people are able to be able to contribute, then there's a sense of we now, right? It can't just be force-fed by the boss. Otherwise, that's- What we're talking about with our father's generation, which doesn't, that doesn't resonate and people end up being detached. They may still come there because they need money. They may be proud to be part of your prestigious club, but do they feel like they're in or not? Mm-hmm. I think they have to really have the-- You know, when we talk about delivering a feeling to the members, like I was saying with the hospitality experience or humanity experience here, the ultimate goal for us and our team is to deliver a feeling, an intangible feeling to the membership. And what I say in the same breath is that in order to do that well, the staff have to have that feeling first.

Joe Smith 57:30

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 57:30

Right? So if they're feeling the love and they're feeling like there's no end to what a person can contribute when they feel in, right? Mm-hmm. I'm a part of this. I'm a contributor. I'm valued here. So again, these are like things that are in every leadership book, and they're super bumper stickery when you hear them. Um, one of the things I wanted to say a minute ago too is our culture unfortunately, and I was the back of the bus kid that was like the shit talker for sure. Um, but in our culture, talking about positive things, the word that the youngsters use now, my, my kids would say cringe, right? That's a word. It's like, "Oh God, it's cringe." Or my generation, it was like Mister Rogers, right? So Mister Rogers is so cheesy 'cause he's talking about friendship and getting along, and like these things that our culture is just like set up to reject. And therefore it's hard to talk about those things directly without people being like, "Oh, here he goes again," right? Mm-hmm. And so the nice thing about getting old for me is that I, I tell everybody on my team like, "I no longer care about sounding cringe," because when these values that sound like bumper stickers are a reality of your day-to-day existence here, you love it, right? It's like everybody loves the direct experience of that versus the talking about the, the obs- abstract concept. So when it's an abstract concept, it's cheesy. But when we're experiencing it, we don't wanna leave ever.

Joe Smith 58:49

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 58:50

Right? Because it's hard to find out there in the world. Well,

Joe Smith 58:53

it comes back to action.

Matt Gilbert 58:54

Yes.

Joe Smith 58:55

Right? I've got a tattoo on my wrist that says- Ta "Action over intention." Denny knows.

Denny Corby 59:00

I was, I was just about- You

Joe Smith 59:01

know,

Denny Corby 59:01

like- to bring it full circle. I was just about to bring it back to the steps and the reps in the beginning, ugh, but I hesitated- for half a second, and then there you go.

Joe Smith 59:11

Well, and that's, that's like, that's been a, again, a motto of mine, a mantra if you will, for just freaking decades. Like the intention is, is the cringe part. Yeah. Right? Like that's the talk about it. That's the, you know, that's the, the, the, the make it look pretty and put it on a billboard and, you know. And that's good. Like you need the intention, but it doesn't become real until you take the action, right? That's- And that's why I always say, my team hears me say it all the time, like action over intention. Yeah. I tattooed it on my wrist so I see it every morning.

Matt Gilbert 59:45

That's badass.

Joe Smith 59:45

You know? And it's like the act- put it into play, right? Let people see the, the difference, the impact, the effect, and now the cringe goes away.

Matt Gilbert 59:57

That's right. That's right. Right? And when, when you have employee engagement surveys and they're ta- they're, and, and let's say you're doing pretty well, and they're telling you the things that they, they like about their direct experience- That's the list

Joe Smith 1:00:11

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:00:11

Right? So it's- 100%. So it's cringe when we're talking about it, but it's actually what everybody wants, and when they get it, what keeps them there. So it's really important to figure out a way with your leadership, and unfortunately, unfortunately, the whole leadership group has to do it first.

Joe Smith 1:00:24

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:00:25

And so can you get a big-ass group of people who are also consumed with their own issues and their own problems, we talked about it before, and their own maybe issues with, like, "Oh my God, that sounds so cringe." It's like, "Yes, but if you'd like to be a leader

Joe Smith 1:00:39

here with us, these are non-negotiables. So we have to,

Matt Gilbert 1:00:42

we have to get to them somehow." And it does help, like we spend so much time, um, again, corporate word, but talent selecting.

Hiring For Culture And Long Game

Joe Smith 1:00:51

We spend so much time. Like, and if we have a person leave

Matt Gilbert 1:00:54

in the middle of summer, and it would just be easy to pull the trigger on a hire within two weeks and get a good cook, uh, let's say it's a chef, a talented cook, but not... You know, cooking skills have no bearing on leadership skills. So a lot of times- Right the problem, the problem with chefs is you get a lot of people in high positions that are super talented, but they've never learned the first thing about looting, leading a group of people, right? So if it's a needle in a haystack, our philosophy is we're gonna wait as long as it- Mm-hmm takes to find that needle, because it would be the wrong thing for the culture to bring in a, a, a, a, an energy vampire who happened to be a very good cook, but was an energy vampire and sabotaging your entire culture, whether overtly or covertly, on a daily basis. You have to find people that believe that too, naturally.

Joe Smith 1:01:41

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:01:42

And then once they do that and model it, it, then you get to the point, 'cause your point earlier, like if you or me got hit by a bus, God forbid, later today, the, all the people that are doing all the jobs are just gonna keep doing all the jobs, and the members are... It's probably a while before they even know that we're six deep.

Joe Smith 1:01:57

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:01:57

Um, those guys on the, on the, on the ground, again, my team is 230, so let's say 180 of those people are literally all day long interfacing with the members. If w- if the magic needs to come from them, it has to start with you and me, and then the large group of people leading them, and then them. We can't think it'll be them while we're not doing it. So I think that's the challenge is you're playing some, some long game chess in building a team, and so much of that is retention too. Like, how do, how do your leaders feel about being there? Mm-hmm. If they don't like it, they'll leave. And guess what? When you start again, God- It takes so long to get people, you know- But- in a club it's like two, three years, right?

Joe Smith 1:02:39

I think back to your, when you said, you know, y- you, you lose someone in the middle of summer and you're ultra-selective about finding the right person, I think- Yeah y- and you're right. You know, for our seasons are opposite, right?

Matt Gilbert 1:02:51

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:02:51

We lose someone in February, and it's the end of the world. Like we are- Yeah knee-deep. Yeah. But being ultra-selective and going through the busiest time of year with a gap in your team, I think naturally makes the team who's there that much stronger.

Matt Gilbert 1:03:09

Yes.

Joe Smith 1:03:09

Right? Because it's a challenge that you're all going through together, and yeah, you lose someone on the line, or you lose a couple pe- and it's like someone else has to pick up that slack, right? Until you select the right person. But they're more inclined to take on the extra work because they know that we're not just gonna fill some- we're just not gonna fill that gap with a body, right? Yeah. Who, like you said, on paper they look great, but they're an, they're an energy vampire and, you know, or they're a cancer, they're gonna bring the team down. Like it's al- it's twofold, right? Like your, the team you have in place is going to grow from that gap. And we don't, uh, oftentimes we don't think like that. No. I mean, I think, I know you do. I do. But, like, getting the greater group to think that way and say, "Listen, guys, girls, we're not gonna fill this spot till we find the right person."

Matt Gilbert 1:04:02

Mm-hmm. And then it's really important that you do, right? Sure. Otherwise, they're like, "Jesus- Amen we waited five months for this loser?" Exactly. Um, so their, their faith in us as leaders, um, definitely depends on us getting the right person. But, boy, it's so worth the wait, you know? And again, we're playing the long game. That's, that's one of the things, too, I think as you get older- Yeah you, you start to realize, 'cause a lot of younger managers are like, "Why don't we just do this now?" And you're like, "It's because we're playing chess." And they're like, "That's bullshit." You know, it's like it, it takes- a while for them to, to finally get there, and I know I didn't for a long time. You know- Yeah I was a very impatient person and just questioned everything that my bosses did, that I now look back and I'm like, "That was smart." So it's, it's helping. I think that's why the mentorship element of our industry is so important-

Joe Smith 1:04:46

Mm-hmm

Matt Gilbert 1:04:47

is that it's helping them understand the whys behind things. Like, listen, I know that we wanna get this jammed into CapEx for this year, but we need to be thinking three or five years about our wants and needs, and you just came up with this now. Like, we're meeting- Right with the finance committee to get approval for this tomorrow. I'm so sorry, but we missed the boat. Why not? We know the money's there. Totally, we can get... It's helping them to understand, especially in clubs, just it's a cruise ship versus a speedboat, right? Mm-hmm. And so all that stuff is, is mentorship oriented, and if you don't have a person to teach you, you may never learn, or it's gonna be really, really hard.

Shoshin Beginner Mind In Leadership

Matt Gilbert 1:05:21

Right. Um, a value I wanted to bring up, and it, it, it, it ties into kind of what we're talking about, it's the Japanese word called shoshin, and that means beginner's mind. And this is one, I, I learned about a lot of Buddhism stuff back in the day. I also don't talk about that in America, 'cause it makes me seem completely kooky. But it's, it's so, it resonates so deeply for me, especially the, the Mahayana stuff that I did. I got to spend a lot of time in the Himalayas, and that was amazing. Can I

Joe Smith 1:05:45

stop you real quick?

Matt Gilbert 1:05:46

Yes, sir.

Joe Smith 1:05:47

I just finished a book.

Matt Gilbert 1:05:48

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:05:49

Uh, Punk to Monk.

Matt Gilbert 1:05:51

Okay.

Joe Smith 1:05:52

Um, this guy was a, um, hardcore, straight edge punk rocker- Um, uh, did a, uh-- turned into a monk, lived over in India, did the ashram thing. Um, it, like literally I read it in like three days. Wow. It was incredible. Yeah. So I'm gonna send you a podcast he was on. Yes. I, you s- you would Literally, I finished-- I put it down yesterday. I finished it yesterday. You would

Matt Gilbert 1:06:21

love it. I love

Joe Smith 1:06:21

that. But I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt.

Matt Gilbert 1:06:23

Not at all. No, I love that stuff. I would, uh, please send that. I'm, I'm super interested 'cause I'm kinda that guy, too. Like I was a metalhead growing up, and now I really, that resonates with me. But the beginner's mind, what I love, and our-- again, Dave's gonna kill me for using him as, as an exam- example, but to have a person so high up embody this concept is amazing. And the effect it has on the organization is amazing. So our, our GM I'm gonna use as an example, even though I aspire towards this for sure, but it always sucks when people talk about themselves, so it's easier to use another person. Um, the beginner's mind is like the concept of bringing Like every- everybody, maybe it's in a relationship, when we first meet our, our girlfriend or our partner and we're just so in love, right? And then two decades later we're married and we can't stand that person. It's like can we remember the beginner's part of that? Mm-hmm. The passion that we originally had. When I got into cooking, I grew up not really in a food family. I told Denny that whole story. So when food dawned on me, I was just like blown away and obsessed, right? Like, "Go. W- I gotta learn everything. I gotta catch up and, and I'm, I'm so just obsessed with this." And so 34 years later, I'm lucky to still feel that same beginner's mind when I do anything in the kitchen, you know? Um, I know that Dave is a person, he's a few years older than me. He approaches everything as though it's his first time doing it. And so a person of that achievement level, like imagine if you've achieved as much as, as you as a GM, or a lot of these GMs have climbed through so many things to arrive there. Here's a person who's still humble enough to learn something from anybody. The guy out there on the lawnmower on the greens, the person planting sod- Mm-hmm the valet who's facing challenges getting all the cars into one particular lot. We may just be like, "You need to do it." Help me understand why that is, right? Oh, I You know, and you get educated. Like to be that high up and to have no ego, and to be humble enough to learn from anybody, um, is such an amazing, uh, attitude. So what I wrote down here, "A term denoting a humble and earnest approach to learning new things, one that is easily lost due to complacency and overconfidence." From a Buddhist sense, it signifies a pure heart. So when we come at things with a genuine interest that anyone's talking about or doing, if we can find Shoshin-type people in the talent search- This is incredibly impactful to our culture, right? If we can have people modeling that mentality. So imagine in, in the Medina Country Club, we have 540 employees right now. All of them are looking up at this man who embodies that every day. I can tell you that the impact on everybody is significant. And who feels that? The members do. Mm-hmm. The members are like, "Dude, I don't know what has happened around here, but everybody's so happy. Everybody is engage-" You know, it's like we're not perfect by any means. Like we got we always have a long list of things that we can do to improve. We're always having that mindset too. But to me, for me, to observe that in action is so a- awesome, and I feel like there's an earnestness in it. There's a vulnerability in it because it's not cool to care in America, right? Like cool to care is one of our pillars here at Medina, make it cool to care, and that's such a cringe thing to talk about, to get back to that. But when you genuinely have a person who's embodying the beginner's mind towards everything that they do, uh, the last thing I have here is to remain true to one's initial resolve. So when we got into this and we were so passionate, can we stay connected to that? Can we inspire others to do that too? If you can, you know, then that line staff, the hundreds of people that actually do the, the impact making, then it's actually a possibility to get them to do those actions that you're so trying so hard to figure out how, you know, on a training level or inspiration level. So I love that word too.

Joe Smith 1:10:14

Well, and think back to what we were talking about 30 minutes ago. You know, that, that sums up this whole conversation is like- Yeah this is all about, um, showing genuine care for others and showing genuine interest in others. So whether or not you're up here on the totem pole or you're down here in terms of the hierarchy of the club- Yeah when you're i- genuinely interested in what others are doing or the aspects of others' jobs that maybe you do know, uh, you understand, but you don't know the ins and outs, showing that interest in what they're doing, asking the questions, and trying to understand, it just makes that person feel that they are interested and interesting and part of something bigger. You know, it goes back to, um, you know, y- beginner's mind. It's Consistency over intensity, right? Yeah. Like, you know, you don't fall in love overnight, right? You don't, you don't fall in love with your wife in one day. It's consistent actions of showing interest in her and getting to know each other, and that beginner's mind in a relationship. You don't get in shape one day. You don't go to the gym for 12 hours and all of a sudden you're in shape.

Matt Gilbert 1:11:31

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:11:32

Right? It's 45 minutes a day or an hour a day consistently over time, and it's going in with a beginner's mind every, you know. I came up, I didn't go to college. I worked my way up. I was blessed to work for pe- Denny's, Denny knows my story. I was blessed to work for people that just showed genuine interest in, in what I was interested in and what makes me tick. And over time, I grew to love this business. I started parking cars. Yeah. You know? And, um, one of the biggest impacts for me early in my career was the food and beverage director at the club I was parking cars at was like, "Hey, I'm gonna give you a copy of all of our BEOs when they're finished so you know what to expect for the special events parking cars." And I'm like, "Wow." Like that's, that's really, that makes me feel important, right? Yeah. You know, to, and as 16, 17-year-old Joe, I was like, "The BEOs, that's a chef and manager thing. Like I don't, I don't get to see those." That was a I didn't even know at the time, what does BEO mean? Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:12:42

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:12:42

You know? Way above me. All of a sudden I've got an inbox in the office, and there's printed copies of BEOs for me every week, and I'm walking up there as the valet saying, "Oh, next month there's a wedding of 150," you know? So like little things like that make such an impact on people. We don't, often we don't realize that. And I try to remind myself of like that's the stuff that got me hooked and made me feel so special. It made me feel part of a team. You know, like I wasn't just the guy parking cars.

Matt Gilbert 1:13:15

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:13:16

Right? And we can- You,

Matt Gilbert 1:13:17

you included

Joe Smith 1:13:18

you know, we can often lose that. And I think, you know, again, having that beginner's mind, you know, consistently- Yeah just keeps that alive in us, right? As leaders. Yes. Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:13:31

Yes. No, absolutely. Um- Abs- I love, yeah, I love that. I totally feel you. Uh, Denny, I feel kind of bad. You're the- This is your podcast, brother, and we're like hijacking it over here. I

Denny Corby 1:13:43

was about to say the same thing. No, this, this was the whole point. I mean, this is, this meeting to me- Denny, what are you, what questions do

Joe Smith 1:13:46

you have?

Denny Corby 1:13:47

Uh, actually I forgot to hit record.

Joe Smith 1:13:51

No you didn't.

Denny Corby 1:13:52

Kidding. I see it up here. Kidding. Kidding. Um, We'll go again. From the top. Let's just Um, no, I, I think, I think I did my job well then, 'cause I linked up two people I thought would have a great conversation, and I didn't have to say a lick of anything. Um, no, I think the, what I come back to the entire time is anticipation. Mm. Like we talked about patient, but it, it's the anticipation of- things, right? Having that beginner's mind. Think about the anticipation of, "Oh my goodness," like when you were so like, "Oh, what am I gonna learn today? Oh, what is, what is it?" Like, going back to everything. You with the B- with the BEOs, "Ooh, how many are there gonna be in today," right? It's ooh, like it's that anticipation. It's managing. It's also, it's like, "Oh, is, is today gonna be the week that I get the promotion," right? Because I, I know like in the Japanese cultures with the food and the sushi and the rice, right? Isn't it, what? 10, 10, 11 years kids can be just- Yeah working on rice before they're, they're moved up. So like the anticipation of that, and just, you know, talking about kids earlier, just the, it's anticipation. It's, it's the, right, the anticipation of things.

Matt Gilbert 1:15:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Shuhari Learn Rules Then Create

Matt Gilbert 1:15:08

Can I, can I... You just triggered another one in my mind. Um, this word I love, it's called shuhari. Uh, shuhari, but it's all one word. So shu, I'm gonna read it again, 'cause I, I can sum it up better that way. E- essentially in, in, in my history in the kitchen, I've always used this term. Learn the rules to break the rules, or master the rules- Mm to break the rules. And I feel like this is something if we're getting back to that like very short attention span that we see sometimes in America, and I kind of am talking about cheffing right now. This comes from the Japanese tea ceremony and also Japanese martial arts. So it's really any sort of skill set where there's a master or a teacher and a student, um, this is a process that happens. And I feel like if in America we can understand this concept, we are so much better as professionals. So in America, because of our, our in, you know, individualism, our desire to be like unique and, and, and, and flashy, we wanna be that master chef really fast, for example. Uh, so we watch some YouTube videos, we work in a restaurant for a year, and we're like our, our Instagram identity is that of a master chef or something like that. But the skill, the depth of skill is really not there, right? And so this in, in Japan, if we acknowledge that they work very hard towards mastery, this concept is awesome. So shu, faithfully adhering to the master's teachings and established forms. Ha, applying and developing those fundamentals in practice. And then eventually, ri, breaking away to become independent from forms and teacher to establish one's own unique method and form. Right? And so if we think about people in the world, it's like Jackie Chan in the world of, of, uh, you know, kung fu comes to mind as a person that we think of as a, as a, as a persona, right? But mastered a martial art to become that, right? So, like, the masters that have that sort of wildness to them, they still had to learn all of that the right way first, right? And there's that patience and diligence. So the last part I hear is, have here is, even when breaking away it is important not to lose the essence of whatever it is we've trained in. And so for me, like, when I heard that a number of years ago, I was like, "Whoa, this is totally chefs," you know? If I, if I can help to have my team realize, like, it's so important to have that patience, to do the reps even though it's boring. Do those reps because you're eventually going to... As soon as you can, like, really understand how all the rules work Eventually you are, and 'cause you're pissed as a young person, you're pissed at having to follow the rules, right? You're like, "Goddammit, I wanna just do it my way." Yeah. But if you don't know the fundamentals and you do it your way, it's just a big mess. The best example I can give- Mm if you guys know Jean-Georges Vongerichten, back in the day of like, when, when fusion food started, um, and then there was the resulting confusion food, uh, what do you want it... Not even trend really, but just like problem or conundrum. Um, that's where like Jean-Georges, uh, Vong, you know, it's like he understood the French because of their time in, in Vietnam, understood that cuisine very deeply, and they understood their own. And so they were able to fuse that in a way that broke the rules, but it did so only in understanding the, the, the profound depths of both cuisines. Yes. And so if a kid, you know, and I was that kid, a, a 22-year-old me, was putting flavors on the plate that should not have gone together. And in my mind, I'm an absolute genius. I'm like, "I'm the first one, you know, that ever did this." And people are eating it and frowning or like, you know, "Ugh." So this many years later, 34 years later, I, I like kind of know enough about specific cuisines to be able to say, "Okay, that fusion is respectful to the origins. It, it works in a way that that functions in your mouth and your taste buds and stuff, and it, it's like this would be a way to fuse this that's good." But only after so long of learning about that should you really do that, you know? Mm-hmm. And I know that's gonna be unpopular with a lot of un- uh, young American chefs who are like, "I just do what I want every day." And probably some of those things turn out okay. America, like you said, is a melting pot, so we're gonna do that. It's been happening. Gioadino, Chicago Italian, I mean, you just look across our country, it's natural fusions everywhere. But those fusions happen, generally speaking, with the people from the origin country doing it. Mm. And then we learn that that works and do it too. So there's a wisdom, I think, that comes from doing those reps. Young me in France was so tired of making quenelles with spoons. I hated it, and I was like, "I'm the bitch that has to like, always just do the quenelles." Um, but boy, am I glad. Old me is very young- happy that young me had to do that. Um, and I really suggest for anybody in any kind of like trade or process-oriented growth, you will be able to have your own style, and you will be able to, a certain degree, break the rules that bother you. But first put in that time. You know, we can be inspired by the Japanese, have the diligence and perseverance to work through the boredom, to gain the skill that comes only from experience and reps, like you said, the experience part.

Denny Corby 1:20:29

Well, and I think to, to spice it up, uh, something, some- something someone told me years ago is like, for you to really understand or sometimes to get that beginner's mind is, uh- Do, so like with like card, you know, playing cards, whatever, do it with your left hand. So how- Yeah however you do it, just use your other hand now. So even if you're trying to explain or if you're gonna teach it to somebody else, do it in your left, 'cause now you're like, "Oh, snap." Like that's, "Oh, oh, it does matter where the pinky goes. Sorry. Yeah, you, you, you know, you gotta hold it this way," or whatever. So even I could imagine for like chef stuff or just, or just, "Oh, use your left," you know, just instead you're used to cutting this way, use the opposite- Mm-hmm put the knife in the other hand. Start re- free- relearning it in your opposite hand. Um, yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:21:20

Yeah, you would be humbled doing that very fast. Can't do it. I can't do anything like that. You know, if I were to do it, I would be useless. So that's a- Yeah great example.

Club Cooking Versus Restaurant Cooking

Joe Smith 1:21:28

You know, Matthew, one of the things I thought of specific to the club industry when you were, when you were talking just there, and this is a GM looking from the outside in on the culinary aspect of what we do. And, you know, you mentioned like blending flavors and fusion cuisine and, you know, quote unquote, "maybe breaking the rules." I've always looked at clubs, um, we have to be all things to all people Right? You know, like you go to the best Italian restaurant in town, and they do Italian food every single night. It's, it's, it's why they're good at what they do. People go there for Italian food, and maybe their regular clients or regular guests, um, you know, regular is maybe twice a month. You know, whereas in a club, and I'm sure you're very similar to ours, like we're trying to get our members to come here not twice a month, three or four or five times a week. And, you know, you go through your busy season and, um, we're not just a, an Italian club. Like we're not Carrabba's, you know? We, we, we'll, we do an Asian night, and, you know, we do, uh, you know, chef will do a French cuisine cooking class, and then we go to a really intimate, um, high-end, uh, game wine dinner, and then you go to an Italian buffet. And then you have your menu which has, you know, club sandwiches to, you know, a Wagyu steak. And it's like th- I think that concept that, you know, you're explaining if, if someone is interested in this p- end of the hospitality business- Yeah you know, we... And again, this is just my view looking from the outside in, like I have to assume that you end up in a kitchen in a club, and you're probably saying, "I'm breaking some of the traditional rules because we are doing so many different things."

Matt Gilbert 1:23:24

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:23:26

You know?

Matt Gilbert 1:23:27

Yeah. Yeah. No, you, certainly. And I, I told, uh, Denny the first time we talked, um, 20-year-old me would have never caught, you know, 48-year-old me dead- Right working in a club. Like young cooks look at the club world, and they're like, "Dude, club sandwiches- and steamed perch, you know?" Um, "I'm never gonna be that guy who gets put out to pasture in a club." R- in reality, being the chef of a club, you have to be good- At p- so many things, man Yeah And it is so humbling to get there. Like, as soon as you think you're a badass, like somebody's like, "Well, how about bulgogi?" You know? And you're like, "Ugh." You know? Or, "Could d- Nepalese yak meat meatballs?" Or, you know, it's like, "Oh, huh. I, I gotta... I don't even know what that is." So it's very humbling. Um, and it's a very challenging job that 48-year-old me looks back at 20, I'm like, "I understand why I thought that," but, you know, and Hong Kong just kicked my ass in that way. Like, I was getting requests from, you know, so many members to do these things that I was like, "Man, I thought I was good," you know? And I don't even- Mm know, I'm like, "I gotta do research," and my whole team is looking at me. Um, your other points of being compared to everything. So, you know, we, we cook a lot of Indian food here. We have a lot of Indian-American members who are awesome, and they frequent the club a lot, but they're judging us on their favorite Indian restaurant, right? Chicago Italian, we know that's a really big thing, so, so many of our members are like, you know, at, at, at Giordellio's they do the rigatoni a lot better than you guys. And in my mind I'm like, "Yeah, for sure they do." That's all they've, that's all they do, man. Of course they do. And they're Italian, right?

Joe Smith 1:25:01

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:25:02

So, and I'm freaking Danish, man. Like, all the things we're doing, I'm not from there. So, so it's, it is a massive challenge, you know? And, and it's the kinda thing that really requires, um, you and your team to be able to just pivot constantly. Mm-hmm. Every single day is different for us, and that's hard for a team. It's hard for leaders, but it's really hard for a team. Like we, everything we do here is custom, you know? Like, people look at the menu, they're like, "That's nice. What I want is..." And then they tell you. And we wanna deliver that. At a club of this stature, and I'm sure at yours too- Yeah we should be able to deliver, again, bumper sticker term, but bespoke culinary experiences whenever they're asked for, right?

Joe Smith 1:25:38

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 1:25:39

And so, ugh, that's, that's definitely daunting and challenging to the point of- Legitimacy, you know, there's a couple things, and actually sushi is one of them. We outsource our sushi to an awesome sushi maker in the city because, yes, technically we can get out a sushi mat and roll some fricking maki. Like we c- we can do that, right? Anybody on the team could. But... And I, I think actually a lot of our members also would be like, "This is great. You guys are doing sushi now." But it, when it comes down to respect, you were just in Japan, I in good faith cannot as a chef just knock out a bunch of random sushi and feel comfortable- Yeah with that, right? So there's a lot of things like, they're like, "Okay, I hear you, but why do you do Thai curry?" Well, I spent a lot of time in Thailand, so I am a farang. I'm a west- white Western guy making farang-style curry. I'm trying to be authentic, a- as authentic as I can, but I, I feel very comfortable 'cause I learned that from Thai people. I was there for a long time. I cook it for myself all the time, right? So I feel... There's, there's like a line I think every chef has to decide- Right of like, w- do I feel comfortable with that? But to your point, yeah, there, there are things that get asked for here that my culinary conscience sometimes I'm like,

Joe Smith 1:26:46

you know, eh. There's that little buzzer sound when someone gets the,

Matt Gilbert 1:26:49

the answer wrong.

Joe Smith 1:26:50

Eh.

Matt Gilbert 1:26:50

You know, and it's like, okay, but we need to just make this as good as we can, right? So delivering for our members is always the number one thing. Uh, and then you try to be the guardrails on, on- Mm-hmm having that, that happen in the best possible way for, you know, respect for the origins, respect for the people that are making it, and then of course making the people that are eating it happy. So- Yeah yeah, it's a complicated thing. It, you brought it, that was a big topic for sure, but, um, yeah, it's, it's real for sure in the club. Yeah. It's happening every day. Every day, right?

Joe Smith 1:27:19

Well, as you said, you know, every day is different. I think that's, I mean, for me anyways, that's one of the draws that has, has kept me so engaged in the industry is you have the opportunity to build these relationships 'cause you see the same people, but you're, you're in an environment where y- you are almost expected to deliver different experiences to keep them engaged.

Matt Gilbert 1:27:41

Yes.

Joe Smith 1:27:42

You know? And it keeps things fresh, you know? And I always tie- Yeah it back to, you know, again, going back to the whole Buddhist thing, everything in life is temporary, including life- Yeah itself. Yes. Nothing lasts forever.

Matt Gilbert 1:27:54

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:27:54

You know? So when you can sit with that and realize that in every aspect of your life, just gives you a new perception on, perspective on things. Yes. Um, I think it keeps you present and you're like, "Hey, this event that we're doing now, or this type of service, or this, this dining experience, this is it." You know? Yeah. We may do this style of event again, but this night, this doesn't, this is temporary. Happens once, let's get through it, learn from it, hopefully it's awesome. Yeah. Members love it, and then it's over. It's done with. It's over. Move on, you know? Yes. And that's just temporary nature of, of what we do is always just- Kept me hooked

Matt Gilbert 1:28:35

Joe, you, you're like blowing my mind, dude. I think we're brothers, man. Like, you- No, likewise you, you're blow- you're blowing my mind right now. So the,

Joe Smith 1:28:42

the fifth word- Den- Denny has this knack of connecting people who just, who connect

Matt Gilbert 1:28:46

He, he does. This is not the first time. Like-

Joe Smith 1:28:48

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 1:28:48

man, you're, you're just blowing my... I mean, we, we literally think the same. So the fifth word I have, and then if you'll indulge me, there's one that I have it written as bonus word- Please afterwards, but this one is number five, and it's exactly what you just

Hakanai And Once In A Lifetime Moments

Matt Gilbert 1:29:00

said. It's called hakanai, and in Japanese hakanai, uh, describes the beautiful yet short-lived nature and ef- ephemeral nature of things and happenings. So, um, again, Natsuko was, was... Her mom was, like, a language scholar. She was explaining to me the kanji. Um, kanji are the different symbols that they use, and there's three different kinds. Um, but the one that's the most complicated that, that resembles the Chinese symbols, these kanji say a lot. And of course, I know none of them, but when she explains them to, to me, uh, I, I was really bowled over. So the kanji for this term hakanai, there's two parts to it. The first part represents a person or people, and the second represents dream. So this is the dream-like nature of human reality,

Joe Smith 1:29:48

right? Mm.

Matt Gilbert 1:29:49

And so the, what I, what I have written here is, "We can be aware of the important changes in our members' lives," right? So the fleeting nature of things, and I have this... I think as we age, we have this more and more, and it's the sentimentality that one gets when one realizes that there's only a number of years left for you, right? And so when I look at fall, for example, in Chicago, you know about the foliage here. It's so beautiful. In my mind is, "How many more of these will I see?" Mm. When you're young you don't think like that. You know, you'll see a million more. You'll see an infinite number more falls, so who gives a shit, right? Now I'm like, "If this was my last fall, what would I wanna remember? What would I wanna take in from this?" Right? If this was my last Christmas buffet and I was decorating it to make everybody as happy as they possibly could be, what, what level of energy would I put into that? All the energy, right?

Joe Smith 1:30:40

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 1:30:40

And so I feel that, you know, it's like again, a person could hear this and be like, "That's a bunch of philosophical rubbish." But what I believe is that our members understand in the club, whether they're understanding it outright or they're understanding it just on an experiential level, I am at this club to experience important things in my life that will only happen once. Like what you just said, right? So for example, recently we did a dinner for a gentleman. He reached out to me and said, "My dad has always loved coming to the club. He doesn't have... He may have three more months to live. He can barely get out. We'd like to bring him there for one final meal." Whoa. Like what an amazing thing for a chef, you know? It's like they chose for his last meal to be our food out- Mm of the house, right?

Joe Smith 1:31:27

Mm.

Matt Gilbert 1:31:28

Or like how often do people when their kids are graduating, they, they want their graduation meal to be in your fine dining restaurant. That has to be perfect for them, right? 'Cause that, that only happens one time, and then that kid is like out of the nest, you know? Or what it's like life, these massive life changes and life happenings that happen to all of us, our members are celebrating those and experiencing those under our care And so to recognize hakkanai, in my opinion, is a, a wonderful thing to do because our members, whether they're... it's in this part of their brain or somewhere else, they're experiencing those part of their lives with you. And if you can understand, to your point, the importance of every detail in that context is, is massive. And how many people can deliver like that? Not very many. So if you can find a group of people who can, first of all, even think like that, and then second of all, deliver, that's the magic.

Joe Smith 1:32:24

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:32:25

And that's what I feel our members deserve, right? And so experientially, hakkanai for me, I, I'm wistful sometimes. I was in Japan a bunch of times. I saw things there, I was like, "Oh." I almost was brought to tears because I recognized the fleeting nature of life.

Joe Smith 1:32:39

Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 1:32:39

Light at a certain time of day, the sun, the way it hits certain things, that's a deep feeling, right? Yeah. To name it for me, to name it, I was like, person, dream, whoa. Yeah. The fleeting nature of human experience. That just was like, kaboom, you know? So to carry that... I've, I've carried that ever since I learned it, and then she just opened the door big time onto it for me. You know, again, my poor team here who has to hear this stuff,

Joe Smith 1:33:04

but it, it's important and it's

Matt Gilbert 1:33:06

helpful, you know?

Joe Smith 1:33:08

That's incredible. Yeah. It's incredible. What, what a, uh... I mean, I think you just really, uh, put into words the amount of responsibility we have-

Matt Gilbert 1:33:20

Yep

Joe Smith 1:33:21

as club leaders, and leaders in general, and really truly as people, you know? When you think- Yep about every... uh, again, not to get all philosophical, but every moment in life is temporary. Mm-hmm. You know, every interaction we have with people is temporary. You know, you may see that, you may see the same person again and again. Denny and I talk every Thursday morning when he goes and gets a haircut- but that conversation only happens once, right?

Denny Corby 1:33:48

Yes.

Joe Smith 1:33:49

Um, it's not every Thursday. But-

Denny Corby 1:33:51

Every other.

Joe Smith 1:33:52

you know, the... you may talk to a person multiple times, but the, that specific conversation's one time and it's gone. It's over, you

Matt Gilbert 1:34:00

know? 100%. 100%. So that's

Joe Smith 1:34:02

a big responsibility as a, as a human, you know? Mm-hmm.

Matt Gilbert 1:34:06

Yeah. And you can just not think like that or not act like that, and then the food is okay. The service is pretty good, right? And they're going to, you know Portillo's up here, right?

Joe Smith 1:34:18

Yeah.

Matt Gilbert 1:34:19

They're going to Portillo's after they golf, or they're, you know, they're going to some steakhouse in the city because they know they can have that feeling there-

Joe Smith 1:34:28

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 1:34:28

but maybe not with us. So it is possible to just not do that. Yeah. But then that's what, that's what good looks like or mediocrity looks like. Um, to your point about the details, what I say about details to the team is excellence is all about details. Mm-hmm. The difference between good and great is all micro-detail stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And having worked in Michelin restaurants, having worked at, you know, the Mandarin Oriental in, in, in, um, in San Francisco, in, in five-star hotels in, you know, Egypt and these different places, and then the American Club was a very high-level club, you know, that's what I learned, is that excellence is in having it be cool to care as a culture, competing with each other in a positive way to provide better guest experiences or better experiences for your coworker than anyone else could. You know, again, healthy competition. All those things have to do with the touch of a small detail, and a lot of people don't even see those details, right? Yeah. So it starts with being able to see them, but then the responsibility involved if you take on that mantle, you're, like, damning yourself to a life of blah, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, it's all, man, it's all there. So-

Joe Smith 1:35:37

Yeah

Matt Gilbert 1:35:38

yeah, it's, it's, it's awesome that you say that. My last word, I, I know that we're almost, uh-

Joe Smith 1:35:42

Yeah,

Matt Gilbert 1:35:42

no, go.

Joe Smith 1:35:43

Shoot

Matt Gilbert 1:35:43

this is the bonus word, and it really- It's like just a word. I, I'm actually talking about it with my daughter, who's 14, just like your daughter. Um, and you know, she's at a point in her life, and so this is for, for younger people. It could be for anybody really. It's a great word. When I, when I heard it and used this to analyze myself and my career path, I was like, "Nice." Um, so it's kind of almost like a system to evaluate, but you know, our kids going into the world these days, it's a daunting, it's a daunting world to enter. Uh, what career do I choose that won't become obsolete in a couple years, et cetera? Uh, it's a weird period of time for everybody,

Ikigai Purpose And The Peace Quotient

Matt Gilbert 1:36:17

right? So for a 14-year-old who's still a few years away, it's like, "What do I do?" So this concept is, uh, Ikigai. I-K-I-G-A-I. You already know it, which is awesome. Ah, I

Joe Smith 1:36:26

knew you were going there. I love it. Go.

Matt Gilbert 1:36:28

So Ikigai, man, when I first heard this, I was just like, "Oh, I wish I knew about this when I was young." Um, so Ikigai is four main questions, and so what am I passionate about? So for me, I was really passionate about, like, metal guitar. Yeah. At the time I wanted to be Slash from Guns N' Roses with the hair. I wanted to be like Slash 2. Um, and so I was like super passionate about guitar, you know, so I was passionate. What are you good at? Well, I sucked pretty bad. There it is. Awesome. I sucked pretty bad at guitar for a while, but then over time I got really good at it. So I'm passionate and I'm good. Question number three: What does the world need? So the world needs a few Slashes. Let's say there's 10 or 20 Slashes in the world, like rock guitar players, um, of that level. Uh, okay, am I one of those? No. Could I be? Maybe, but the odds, the n- the nu- the numbers don't work in your favor. And then number four: What can you be paid for? So what am I passionate about? What am I good at? What does the world need? What can I be paid for? I certainly couldn't get be, be paid for rock guitar, or I could, but we made, like, $10 at the door, you know? It was like we, we're splitting a pot of, like, of, like, 60 bucks between five people. Um, so then I apply that question to, to being a chef. You know, like, I'm passionate about that. Am I good at it? Hopefully by now. Um, does the world need it? Yes, right? People wanna... A big part of our joy as human beings is eating good things. Um, and can you be paid for it? Evidently, you can, right? Right. So then that from an ikigai sen- standpoint... And again, uh, because it's Japanese, it has to do with a holistic sense of contentment. That's what this is about, right? Is in our lives, are we content? And so there's a... We know that there's a lot of people ghost walking through their life in a career they hate, and that, I think the term in the '90s was soul-destroying work or early corporate work, you know? It was like, I don't even know the outcome of what I'm doing and the impact it has on anything, but yet I have to do it in order to pay for, as we talked about before, my mortgage and my, my cat and my dental work and all those things. And so it's sad, you know, so many people do make their way through life because you have to do something, doing something- Mm-hmm that's somewhat soul-destroying or at least not yielding a happy existence for you. Um, and so it's like, really that's why I say it's for anyone of any age, is if there's a person in their 30s or 40s, like, with... One thing that's awesome about America is you can career change at 50 or whatever age. So, you know, if somebody hears that and goes, "Whoa, you know, I'm, I'm also interested in this." Like, my daughter loves making... She's a very talented cat artist. So if we put that through those four questions, it's probably not what she'll do for a living, but it, it's, it's close enough to some things that she could connect it to- Mm-hmm that she for sure could, and then cat art is what I do on the side, you know? And I sell that- Mm-hmm on Etsy or whatever it is. Um, so I love that as just a way to evaluate, like, what am I doing and, and how would that likely turn out, uh, in a realistic sense, um, you know, for the long term of my life or, or, or even the short term. But, like, direction-wise, a lot of people don't even... There's no compass to use, and that kind of is one. Uh, so when I learned about that, I was like, "Oh, that's awesome too."

Joe Smith 1:39:43

It's, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Matt Gilbert 1:39:48

But you knew about it already.

Joe Smith 1:39:50

I, I had a feeling you were going there.

Matt Gilbert 1:39:52

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:39:53

Um, I, you know, and again, I didn't... I came back from Japan with, um, arigato gozaimasu- Yeah,

Matt Gilbert 1:40:00

yeah

Joe Smith 1:40:01

and sumimasen, and konnichiwa, ohayo gozaimasu. Yeah. But again, you know, just, um, you know, some of those word, ikig- ikigai is a word that I've, I've, you know, known of and, and, you know, have, have heard of, you know, f- long before I traveled there, so. Um, and I think you're right. You know, I, um, I like... I, I have this concept that I, I like to call the peace quotient.

Matt Gilbert 1:40:28

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:40:29

And it's, uh, the people, the places, and the purpose. And wherever you are in life, you say, "Okay," y- y- you, you, you rate those three areas. So am I surrounded by the right people? Am I in the right place geographically, or maybe it's work-related? And am I, am I doing something that feels purposeful? You know, and those three categories shift depending on your life, you know? Yeah. Um, when I took my first general manager job, I, I was up, I went to Tampa, I was 26. Um, you know, the place I was at was pretty cool. Um, but I wasn't surrounded by great people. My mom was down in Naples, uh, very sick, fighting cancer, and so I was struggling with that. So, like, my peace quotient was out of balance. You know, and I, I always refer back to that at different stages in my life. Um, and I think it's very similar to the ikigai concept, you know, where, you know, it's, um, you know, you've got these, these, these m- this multitude of questions that when they all line up, you're like, "Okay, this is, this what's... This is where I feel whole," right?

Matt Gilbert 1:41:39

Yes.

Joe Smith 1:41:39

Um, and you know, there's times in life where, you know, it has to be out of balance. And as long as you're aware of it, you can work through it.

Matt Gilbert 1:41:49

Yes. Wow, that's fantastic. La- later when you're here at the club, please take that deeper. I'm really interested hearing more

Joe Smith 1:41:56

about that. Oh, of course, man. I c- I can't wait. That's awesome. We're, we're gonna... You've got my cell, I've got your cell. We're gonna connect for sure, um-

Matt Gilbert 1:42:03

Yes, sir

Joe Smith 1:42:03

when we're up there.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:05

Very cool. That's awesome. I just wrote that down while you were talking. I love it. That's cool. I took a

Joe Smith 1:42:10

ton of notes too. So.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:12

Yeah. Well, that's, you know, that's the... I think people like us, and there's a lot of us out there, it's like if you're paying attention, there is stuff to be inspired by everywhere.

Joe Smith 1:42:20

Absolutely. You know? It, it's all in what you're looking for, right? Yes.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:24

Yeah.

Joe Smith 1:42:24

Where

Matt Gilbert 1:42:25

your

Joe Smith 1:42:25

focus is.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:26

For sure. For sure. Okay, Denny. We need you now.

Wrap Up And Where To Learn More

Denny Corby 1:42:30

No, as I say, could not have been more thrilled with how, how, how this turned out. I mean, like, I, I got nothing. I got nothing. That it all came full circle. We tied it all together. It all... There was callbacks. There was, there was... It was awesome. This was great. Gentlemen, thank you so much- No, this was

Joe Smith 1:42:44

awesome conversation

Denny Corby 1:42:44

for coming on, and thank you, thank you for sharing.

Joe Smith 1:42:47

Denny, thanks for connecting us, man. This was, this was... Made my, made my week. Made my month. I tried.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:53

Yeah. Mine too. You- Yeah, brother, man, like I can't wait to talk more. You're

Joe Smith 1:42:58

awesome. Likewise.

Matt Gilbert 1:42:59

That's so cool.

Joe Smith 1:42:59

Likewise.

Matt Gilbert 1:43:00

Thank you, Denny. Den- you're... Denny's like the social glue of- Yeah of the world, man. He brings people together. It's hilarious at the, at the CMAs, he's like running around the floor of the expo, like grabbing somebody and bringing them to someone else in order to meet. Yeah. You know? Like, you're, you're a special human being, sir.

Joe Smith 1:43:18

I try. Are you going to, um, conference in February in Chicago?

Matt Gilbert 1:43:23

Yes. Yeah. Awesome. And actually, what's cool for us here is we're gonna be able to have a lot more people attend from a budgetary- Yeah standpoint, 'cause we'll like go from our house versus flying across the country. But, um, yeah, it'll be interesting. You know, I know everybody in the CMA world is knowing that, uh, you know, Chicago winter could be a, a slightly different experience than Tampa and this year in Anaheim or whatever. But, uh, yeah, for sure we'll be there and, and look forward to hopefully hosting some stuff here too at the club.

Joe Smith 1:43:49

Very cool. Very cool.

1:43:51

Oh, gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for sharing. That was such a great episode. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Hope you all made it to the end. If you did, thank you. That was such a great conversation If you want to learn more about the Denny Corby Experience or Management In Motion, head on over to DennyCorby.com But that's this episode. I'm your host, Denny Corby. Until next time. Catch y'all on the flippity flip